Let's talk about the Trinity

lared · Aug 26, 2003

It was not God Almighty who came to this earth. It was his son.

When Jesus was baptized, there was a voice out of heaven that proclaimed that Jesus was his son, whom he had approved.

Two persons in two different places.

It is interesting that Judaism denies the Son, and yet Christendom denies the Father.

I am one of millions of Christians around the globe that reject the trinity and worhsip only the Father just as Abraham, Moses, David, and yes, even Jesus did. And yet I and my fellow believers accept Jesus as the Messiah, our ransom sacrifice.

GJG · Aug 27, 2003

Hi all

The substance within this unique person (Jesus) is the very same substance that is the one eternal Spirit; God.

Jesus did pre-exist only within the mind and plan of God (logos).

The 'name' Jesus came into actual being only when the 'perfect vessel' was made of a woman, so that the 'God within' became a Father to that which He conceived, hence:"God with us".

As you rightly put it; the flesh is not the true 'self' of a man, but rather the spirit within. Thus, this many-titled Spirit (God), that was within a truly pure vessel, took unto Himself this "Personal Name": Jesus.

This vessel of God has now been glorified into heaven in a totally different form. The same form that manifested Himself to Saul (Paul), on the way to Damascus, as a supernaturally bright and intense light. The past vessel is no more, until the time He desires to come back.

Therefore, there is a truth to the fact that Jesus was and is the Immutable Eternal Spirit: God.

mtown · Aug 27, 2003

Please read...

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/voulgaris_trinity.html

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/pap_spirit.html

There is a terrible understanding of what the Trinity is and a complete neglect of articles that I have posted several times on this forum. The same rediculous misled arguments are made concerning the Trinity. If you would please read these articles then many things would become clear.

lared · Aug 28, 2003

Only the heavenly Father YHWH or rather Jehovah in modern common day English is everlasting.

Jesus had a beginning as he was created. However, even if you do not believe that....he was dead for parts of three days. Thus he could not be from everlasting to everlasting. You would have to minus three days.

Jehovah never had a beginning and will never have an end. He never died. If he had......what a perfect opportunity for Satan.

Philip · Aug 28, 2003

lared said:
Jesus had a beginning as he was created. However, even if you do not believe that....

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.

he was dead for parts of three days. Thus he could not be from everlasting to everlasting. You would have to minus three days.

How so? Physical death does not include an end of existence. Rather, it is a separation of the body and soul.

drmmjr · Aug 28, 2003

Philip said:
How so? Physical death does not include an end of existence. Rather, it is a separation of the body and soul.

You mention that the body and soul are seperate. Such a distinction is not seen in Scripture, for the body is part of the soul. God "breathed into his nostrils the breath (or spirit) of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7). Notice, not a living body; not that the soul entered the body and he became a living man; but God breathed spirit into the body and "man became a living soul."

WHAT HAPPENS AFTER DEATH?

lared · Aug 28, 2003

Genesis 2:7

Man came TO BE a living soul.

NOT.......Man came TO HAVE a living soul.

Either Jesus was dead or he was not.

sojeru · Aug 28, 2003

20. If the Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, then why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? Luke12:10.

Click to expand...

I'm honestly not 100% sure as to the whole co-equal doctrine. I don't even pay it any mind.

in actuality the text says "a son of man".
not "the son of man" giving it the definite article- now i think there can be some revising done in its interpretation.

and do jews actually reject the son?
hi lared, i think you will have a disturbing time reading a highly regarded ORTHODOX jewish book called Zohar.

shalom u'bracha

sojeru · Aug 28, 2003

Man came TO BE a living soul.

I guess you dont know the original language dont you.
SEE , MEssiah is not a nefesh(soul) because a soul only exists with breath.
However, a persons spirit can continually exist without breath.
there is a Nefesh(soul) governed by the nishmat chayyim(breath of life) and then there is the ruach(spirit)
So man did not become a spirit(ruach) but a living nefesh.
YHWH is not nefesh but he is SPIRIT, the nishmat chayyim.
without the GIVING of the Nishmat chayyim- there is no nefesh and the body is just that- a basar (body) with no nefesh.

better arguement will be needed from you.

drmmjr · Aug 28, 2003

sojeru said:
I guess you dont know the original language dont you.
SEE , MEssiah is not a nefesh(soul) because a soul only exists with breath.
However, a persons spirit can continually exist without breath.
there is a Nefesh(soul) governed by the nishmat chayyim(breath of life) and then there is the ruach(spirit)
So man did not become a spirit(ruach) but a living nefesh.
YHWH is not nefesh but he is SPIRIT, the nishmat chayyim.
without the GIVING of the Nishmat chayyim- there is no nefesh and the body is just that- a basar (body) with no nefesh.

better arguement will be needed from you.

I'm a little unsure of what you mean when you say that "However, a persons spirit can continually exist without breath." It seems like you are saying the two are different. Here's what I have read and understand spirit and soul to mean.

In the Old Testament, "spirit" is translated from two Hebrew words, neshamah and ruach. Neshamah is defined as "breath", and is called "breath" in eleven texts. It is called "soul" once (Isaiah 57:16), and "spirit" twice (Job 26:4; Proverbs 20:27). It is called "blast" three times (2 Samuel 22:16; Job 4:9; Psalm 18:15), and "inspiration" once (Job 32:8). In general use, "breath" and "spirit" are synonymous in meaning. The word ruach is defined as "wind". It is called "breath" 28 times, and "spirit" 232 times. Other renderings are: air, anger, blast, cool courage, mind, quarters, side, tempest, wind, vain, windy and whirlwind.

Ruach is the word translated "spirit" in Ecclesiastes 12:7: "The dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it." Quite often, men use "spirit" of this text interchangeably with "soul" and claim that it never dies. "Spirit" is the ruach or air that man quits breathing at death, and which goes back to God who gave it. "Soul" is from nephesh, meaning "life". "Spirit" and "life" are not used interchangeably, although one cannot exist without the other; life cannot continue without air. When the breath is taken away, life ceases, we no longer breathe.

But nowhere in Scriptures does it speak of an immortal soul or spirit, so I don't see how you can say that a person's spirit can continually exist without breath since spirit is breath.

edward · Aug 28, 2003

drmmjr said:
You mention that the body and soul are seperate. Such a distinction is not seen in Scripture, for the body is part of the soul. God "breathed into his nostrils the breath (or spirit) of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7). Notice, not a living body; not that the soul entered the body and he became a living man; but God breathed spirit into the body and "man became a living soul."

So, are you saying that the breath of God dies along with the body? Do you think that the breath of God was not in existence before God made man?

drmmjr · Aug 29, 2003

edward said:
So, are you saying that the breath of God dies along with the body? Do you think that the breath of God was not in existence before God made man?

No, the breath that God breathed into man doesn't die. Breath is not alive, it is what causes life. When a person dies for what ever reason, they are no longer able to take in oxygen, thus breath. If you can't breath, you die. As long as you have breath, you have life.

Genesis 2:7- And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Before God caused man to take in the breath of life, man was just a pile of non living dust.

As to the breath of God not being in existence before God made man? I guess you would have to ask if God breathes to live.

sojeru · Aug 29, 2003

hi drmmjr,
have you not heard that when a person dies his spirit will be gathered back again to the immortal?
does that mans individual spirit die?
no- it continues to exist

shalom u'bracha

SonWorshipper · Aug 29, 2003

Just a friendly reminder. This is the Messianic Judaism forum. We may have differing views on the Trinity. Please do not force your views upon us. Those who are not Messianic believers are only allowed to post questions in here. If you wish to debate we have a forum above this one for that or you may go to IDD for a formal debate there.

I myself do not believe in a Trinity as presented by the Christian Church. It does not mean however that I don't believe in G-d or Yeshua or the Ruach HaKodesh, for I certainly do. I just don't believe tht they are three separate persons.

drmmjr · Aug 29, 2003

sojeru,

So that we won't be accused of hijacking this thread, I'll start one on what the Jewish concept of the spirit is.

sojeru · Aug 29, 2003

indeed, they are one omein

sojeru · Aug 29, 2003

ok drmmjr

GJG · Aug 30, 2003

The Bible is utterly clear on this fact:

God is the same unchanging ONE SPIRIT throughout. Invisible, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent. ONE GOD!

Why do you think Jesus Himself pointed this fact out, as being the FIRST and most IMPORTANT commandment of all!

Is this not the same teaching today?

Any reasoning that does not line up with this most vital fact, cannot be scriptural.

GJG · Aug 30, 2003

what is the Messianic Judaism view on the ONE God?

KelsayDL · Aug 30, 2003

lared said:
Only the heavenly Father YHWH or rather Jehovah in modern common day English is everlasting.

Indeed.

It was not God Almighty who came to this earth. It was his son.

Oh?

Are you so sure?

Lets delve into the scriptures and see what they have to say!

(NOTE: I will not attempt to define the nature of God, but I believe there is ample biblical evidence to refute your second claim).

Lets turn to Isaiah and hear what the Lord revealed to him at one point in time;

Isaiah 9:6- For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Striking, no?

At one point in time, God revealed to Isaiah that a child was to be born to a woman. And that this child was to be called THE Mighty God, and THE Everlasting Father.

If this was not Yeshua aka Jesus, I would sorely like to know who you think it was that God revealed to Isaiah.

But again, I believe trying to define the exact nature of God is folly.

Let's talk about the Trinity

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