Let's talk about the Trinity and Free Will.

[Soulx3]

There are umpteen verses in the bible that go against the concept of "Free will"

No, and I just gave a few examples of why man does have free will, to which you said nothing. So, again, if God didn't give man a free will, then why did He give us commandments to follow? Why did He instruct us to show mercy, forgive, and repent, etc.?

 

[Water and Fire]

When one claims God has control over everything, that includes the darkness of sin. This is why Calviniism, when logically concluded, is in great error.

Is there anything darker than the murder of God's son?


Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[Water and Fire]

If mankind doesn't have a free will, then God wouldn't have given us commandments to follow, nor have spoken about the importance of forgiveness and repentance, etc., but He did because He gave His creature man a free will. There's no merit in coercion.

Is that why God told Pharoh to let his peple go, but Pharoh would not comply?


Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

[Soulx3]

Is that why God told Pharoh to let his peple go, but Pharoh would not comply?


Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Why would God tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go in the first place if He made Pharaoh let them go? It doesn't make sense, which is why your interpretation of this verse is wrong. Pharaoh was prideful and stubborn. His refusal to let the Israelites go brought up on himself more chastisements from God, which made him more hardened and prideful.

And, once again you didn't answer my question. If God didn't give man a free will, then why did He give us commandments to follow? Why did He instruct us to show mercy, forgive, and repent, etc.?

 

[Water and Fire]

Why would God tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go in the first place if He made Pharaoh let them go? It doesn't make sense, which is why your interpretation of this verse is wrong. Pharaoh was prideful and stubborn. His refusal to let the Israelites go brought up on himself more chastisements from God, which made him more hardened and prideful.

And, once again you didn't answer my question. If God didn't give man a free will, then why did He give us commandments to follow? Why did He instruct us to show mercy, forgive, and repent, etc.?

I will try one more time.

God told Pharaoh to let his people go, but God also hardened his heart so he would not do what he told him to do.
Why would he tell him to do something if he knew he wasn't going to do it? Pharaoh did not have freewill, because God hardened his heart.

Get it now?

 

[Soulx3]

I will try one more time.

God told Pharaoh to let his people go, but God also hardened his heart so he would not do what he told him to do.
Why would he tell him to do something if he knew he wasn't going to do it? Pharaoh did not have freewill, because God hardened his heart.

Get it now?

Again, if God made Pharaoh not let the Israelites go, then why did God even command him to let them go in the first place as if he had a choice if he didn't? Also, if God didn't give man a free will, then why did He give us commandments to follow? Why did He instruct us to show mercy, forgive, and repent, etc.?

 

[Water and Fire]

Again, if God made Pharaoh not let the Israelites go, then why did God even command him to let them go in the first place as if he had a choice if he didn't? Also, if God didn't give man a free will, then why did He give us commandments to follow? Why did He instruct us to show mercy, forgive, and repent, etc.?

Oh wow man, don't even worry about it.

 

[Soulx3]

Oh wow man, don't even worry about it.

Your inability to answer my questions should be enough evidence to show you that your belief that humans don't have a free will is flawed.

 

[Oneofhope]

If mankind doesn't have a free will, then God wouldn't have given us commandments to follow, nor have spoken about the importance of forgiveness and repentance, etc., but He did because He gave His creature man a free will. There's no merit in coercion.

Fair enough. If this is true, why then, do we find throughout the Bible that God determines the thoughts of humans and animals, thus causing them to think and behave according to their over-riding direction in the Lord? This principle is throughout the bible. Again, it is throughout the Bible. We don't have to be great theologians or scholars to see this. The only requirement is that we be able to read English. God did not make His Word so difficult that people who have been given eyes and ears can understand it.

 

[Oneofhope]

There are umpteen verses in the bible that go against the concept of "Free will"

That's correct. But how do we harmonize the primary theme of the Bible which is that God is in supreme control over all people, animals, and physical creation? How do you do that?

 

[Oneofhope]

Is there anything darker than the murder of God's son?


Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

I would advise against calling the Eternal Plan of God "Dark." It is quite the opposite . . . it is incredibly beautiful and selfless. All of people's actions, thoughts, and words were under the Divine control of the Lord. Even John MacArthur acknowledges this Work.

Acts 2:23 NLT - "But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him."

 

[Oneofhope]

Is that why God told Pharoh to let his peple go, but Pharoh would not comply?


Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

The Bible is crystal clear: God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that the Glory of God would be made known.

Romans 9:17-18 NLT - "For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth." So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen."

I would recommend studying the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order so that you can understand the actual Story of God.

 

[Oneofhope]

Again, if God made Pharaoh not let the Israelites go, then why did God even command him to let them go in the first place as if he had a choice if he didn't? Also, if God didn't give man a free will, then why did He give us commandments to follow? Why did He instruct us to show mercy, forgive, and repent, etc.?

Power. The answer to your question is Power. Of all things in the Bible that we are to glean, it should be the Power of God. Why? Because proper fear of the Lord leads to Understanding, Knowledge, and Wisdom. Without fear of the Lord, we cannot have the perspective God wants us to have.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Is there anything darker than the murder of God's son?


Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth laid down His own life.

John 15:12-14

12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.​

 

[Soulx3]

Fair enough. If this is true...

What do you mean "If its true that we have a free will...". We clearly do have a free will since God gave us commandments to either obey or disobey, and spoke of mercy, forgiveness, and repentance. God even became man to live among us, to be an example of obedience. God would have done none of that and more if He created us without a free will.

 

[Oneofhope]

What do you mean "If its true that we have a free will...". We clearly do have a free will since God gave us commandments to either obey or disobey, and spoke of mercy, forgiveness, and repentance. God even became man to live among us, to be an example of obedience. God would have done none of that and more if He created us without a free will.

I hear you. The things I offer are basically copy and paste from the Bible. I'm just reporting what my translations say.

Say, could you do me a huge favor and give me an example of what it would be like if someone were to violate your sense of free will.

Thanks!

 

[Soulx3]

I hear you. The things I offer are basically copy and paste from the Bible. I'm just reporting what my translations say.

What I say comes from Scripture as well, and it shows we have a free will, which doesn't support the belief that we don't. You can't seem to reconcile your belief that mankind was not given a free will with the fact that God gave us commandments to either be obeyed or disobeyed, and speaks of rewards and consequences depending on what we choose.

Say, could you do me a huge favor and give me an example of what it would be like if someone were to violate your sense of free will.

Your question is based on the assumption I have a free will to begin with, and only God can violate my free will without my permission. If He were to ever do that, it would only be to do what is His will, and if doing His will is what I freely wanted before He even "violated" my free will, it's not really a violation. So, why doesn't God just violate our free will? Because there's no merit in coercion, even if it's to do His will.

The only being I can fully let violate my free will with my permission is satan, and I've never given him permission to take possession of me, not even to the degree of me giving up my free will so as to become an irreversible slave to sin. So, I can't tell you what that's like.

 

[Oneofhope]

You can't seem to reconcile your belief that mankind was not given a free will with the fact that God gave us commandments to either be obeyed or disobeyed, and speaks of rewards and consequences depending on what we choose.

Actually, I've been saying that the Bible consistently reports that God Enables His Elect to obey Him.

only God can violate my free will without my permission

Sweet.

 

[Soulx3]

Sweet.

And, yet He chooses not to, even though He could.

 

[Soulx3]

Actually, I've been saying that the Bible consistently reports that God Enables His Elect to obey Him.

So, you acknowledge that God gave mankind a free will?