Lets talk about the supposed vow of chastity of Mary

[washedagain]

I have already stated that there is no explicit statement of a vow of chastity, yes

I have demonstrated that it is stated in Holy Scripture that she has no intention of engaging in conjugal relations.

What you have yet to demonstrate is that Mary made a vow of chastity, or that she had intentions of never engaging in conjugal relations for the rest of her life.

 

[Thekla]

What you have yet to demonstrate is that Mary made a vow of chastity, or that she had intentions of never engaging in conjugal relations for the rest of her life.

I did; see again my posts on the tenses and order used in the Lukan passages.

Mary clearly states she will not ever engage in conjugal relations.
This is clearly demonstrated in the Greek text of the Gospel of Luke.

 

[washedagain]

I did; see again my posts on the tenses and order used in the Lukan passages.

Mary clearly states she will not ever engage in conjugal relations.
This is clearly demonstrated in the Greek text of the Gospel of Luke.

I am sorry... Mary says no such thing.... the prospect of "never or ever" is not in the text at all....

What she clearly states is that she is confused because she does not know a man.

 

[Philothei]

‪(1 of 4) Mary the Ever-Virgin (الكنيسة القبطية)‬‏ - YouTube


Maybe watching this video would be a good source for why the Church as early on called Theotokos Ever virgin.

 

[washedagain]

=Philothei;58251207]The same way you cannot document Christ's "vow" to virginity but we take it based on Tradition or the concept of the Holy Trinity the same applies to Mary's ever Virginity. We also trust the opinions of the ones who consolidated the Bible.

Jesus made a vow of virginity? All I know is that it is not documented that Jesus was ever married. The concept of the HS is in scripture.... Mary taking a vow is not. There is no concept there, AT ALL.

Also how can we have physical evidence of the resurrection?

I am not asking for physical evidence... we have testimonies of eye witnesses that observed the resurrection... that is what is called evidence.

We do not have it or I have been missing something.... I know it is in the Bible but those are testimonies not "physical" lab proof.

Again, no one has suggested physical lab proof... not sure why you are speaking of such.

 

[mrmccormo]

Let's flip this around:

What proof is there that Mary DID have sexual relations with Joseph? The references to Jesus's brothers and sisters is quite easily explained by Joseph having children from a prior marriage, or that they were cousins.

Some find it implausable that a man would refrain from having sex with his wife.

I find it entirely plausible that Mary remained a virgin. Joseph was a Jewish, God-fearing man who was told by an angel that his bride-to-be would give birth to his saviour -- the Christ. I can easily imagine that such a man would set aside his sexual desires for his wife out of respect for the womb that carried God Himself.

 

[Thekla]

I am sorry... Mary says no such thing.... the prospect of "never or ever" is not in the text at all....

You are of course welcome to your opinion, but the grammar does not support it.

What she clearly states is that she is confused because she does not know a man.

To support this position, you must be able to show that Gabriel told her when she would conceive prior to her answer.

 

[Philothei]

Jesus made a vow of virginity? All I know is that it is not documented that Jesus was ever married. The concept of the HS is in scripture.... Mary taking a vow is not. There is no concept there, AT ALL.




I am not asking for physical evidence... we have testimonies of eye witnesses that observed the resurrection... that is what is called evidence.



Again, no one has suggested physical lab proof... not sure why you are speaking of such.

Was Christ a virgin? That is what I am talking about that does not answer my question... You and me do not know right? I mean it is not mentioned anywhere...
-concept of the Trinity is documented in the Bible and so is the EV. The same councils that put the canon of the NT and formulated the HT are the same who talk about the EV of Mary

Physical evidence is what was asked here before by other posters.

 

[justinangel]

I am simply asking for evidence since none is recorded in Holy Scripture.

Scripture musn't be read strictly in the historical literal sense or solely relied on for knowledge of the divine truth in its fullness. Much that is presented in the Scriptures is implied or alluded to, often by way of prophecy or typology or the form of verbal expressions. True, Scripture doesn't literally say "Mary had made a vow of chastity and remained ever-virgin throughtout her life." But neither does it say "The Holy Spirit is God" or whether "Jesus is of divine essence" or "of one and the same essence with the Father (together with the Holy Spirit)".

Scripture is formally insufficient as a medium of divine revelation because of its characteristic implicitness and ambiguity. As a medium of divine revelation itself, Apostolic Tradition serves to render the written word more explicit in the life of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Jn 16:12-13) and the guardianship of the Episcopate. Scripture must be interpreted in light of this Tradition, for these two mediums comprise the deposit of faith and function in unison to transmit the fullness of divine truth. The Church relied solely on Tradition before the NT was written and compiled as part of it in its written form.

And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandeth what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless a man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Acts 8, 30-31

"They who are placed without the Church, cannot attain to any understanding of the divine word. For the ship exhibits a type of Church, the word of life placed and preached within which, they who are without, and lie near like barren and useless sands, cannot understand."
St. Hilary of Poitiers, On Matthew, Homily 13:1 (A.D. 355)

Pax Christu
J.A.

 

[Philothei]

Let's flip this around:

What proof is there that Mary DID have sexual relations with Joseph? The references to Jesus's brothers and sisters is quite easily explained by Joseph having children from a prior marriage, or that they were cousins.

Some find it implausable that a man would refrain from having sex with his wife.

I find it entirely plausible that Mary remained a virgin. Joseph was a Jewish, God-fearing man who was told by an angel that his bride-to-be would give birth to his saviour -- the Christ. I can easily imagine that such a man would set aside his sexual desires for his wife out of respect for the womb that carried God Himself.

No proof either side..indeed. How can one had declared such a thing of "evidence" to the Mother of God? I think the fact Christ entrusted her care to John says it all. She had no more children for the simple fact she had no relations. Yep I agree that the respect alone would have been enough for Joseph (who was much older in age as he also died not too long after Christ was a teen) not to engage in a sexual relationship with her.

 

[mrmccormo]

Yep I agree that the respect alone would have been enough for Joseph (who was much older in age as he also died not too long after Christ was a teen) not to engage in a sexual relationship with her.

I think that people aren't aware of the ramifications of what would have happened if Joseph did have relations with Mary. People think in such simple terms: if Joseph married Mary, then they had sex! Hur hur! Let's assume the Jews accepted Jesus wholeheartedly as savior:

Jews: Wow! Jesus, you really are the Son of God, the promised Messiah!

Jesus: Yep.

Jews: Your parents Mary and Joseph must be very proud!

Jesus: Well, just as a point of theology, I was conceived by the Holy Spirit as was foretold in the prophets. My mother was a virgin when I was born. Joseph isn't my biological father.

Jews: WOW! Praise our Lord! A miracle and a fulfillment of the prophets! Your mother was a virgin when you were conceived? Wow!

Jesus: Yep.

Jews: But...wait a sec. Your mother, Mary, had other children, right?

Jesus: Yep.

Jews: So...you're saying that Joseph had sex with Mary?

Jesus: Well, yeah.

Jews: So...you're saying that Joseph had sex with the womb that carried the Messiah to earth, the womb which carried our Lord, the very same virgin womb that was indwelt by the Holy Spirit itself?

Jesus: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Oh, there's Joseph now. Maybe you should go talk to him.

Jews: *riot*

I find it very hard to believe that such a devout Jewish man who was visited by an angel and also had enough honor to marry Mary even though she conceived by the Holy Spirit would then turn around and - not to be crass - have "sloppy seconds" with the woman who carried the Messiah. No Jew who understood the Messianic prophesies would act in such a way.

 

[Philothei]

I think that people aren't aware of the ramifications of what would have happened if Joseph did have relations with Mary. People think in such simple terms: if Joseph married Mary, then they had sex! Hur hur! Let's assume the Jews accepted Jesus wholeheartedly as savior:

Jews: Wow! Jesus, you really are the Son of God, the promised Messiah!

Jesus: Yep.

Jews: Your parents Mary and Joseph must be very proud!

Jesus: Well, just as a point of theology, I was conceived by the Holy Spirit as was foretold in the prophets. My mother was a virgin when I was born. Joseph isn't my biological father.

Jews: WOW! Praise our Lord! A miracle and a fulfillment of the prophets! Your mother was a virgin when you were conceived? Wow!

Jesus: Yep.

Jews: But...wait a sec. Your mother, Mary, had other children, right?

Jesus: Yep.

Jews: So...you're saying that Joseph had sex with Mary?

Jesus: Well, yeah.

Jews: So...you're saying that Joseph had sex with the womb that carried the Messiah to earth, the womb which carried our Lord, the very same virgin womb that was indwelt by the Holy Spirit itself?

Jesus: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Oh, there's Joseph now. Maybe you should go talk to him.

Jews: *riot*

I find it very hard to believe that such a devout Jewish man who was visited by an angel and also had enough honor to marry Mary even though she conceived by the Holy Spirit would then turn around and - not to be crass - have "sloppy seconds" with the woman who carried the Messiah. No Jew who understood the Messianic prophesies would act in such a way.

worse yet....You are the only begotten Son of God? whaaaaa? Yep but you are NOT so from your mom's side ... Wait... You are only begotten as far as your divinity... WOW so why are you called the ONLY begotten?

Imagine the field day the pagans would have "spliting" Christ up to human and divine...:o:o:o:o

 

[Thekla]

worse yet....You are the only begotten Son of God? whaaaaa? Yep but you are NOT so from your mom's side ... Wait... You are only begotten as far as your divinity... WOW so why are you called the ONLY begotten?

Imagine the field day the pagans would have "spliting" Christ up to human and divine...:o:o:o:o

Indeed !

And it seems the problem still exists

 

[Dorothea]

Well, I certainly agree... I still have yet to read any evidence that there is a vow within the Jewish community, that a young woman who would make a such a vow would get engaged regardless, or that Mary made such a vow.

Lets see how long this will go with vain words and absolutely no support of evidence.

I guess one needs to research Jewish history at that time period and read the Bible in which Anna tells God that she will dedicate her child to the Temple.

 

[Dorothea]

The Greek tenses used in the Lukan passages concomitant with the order and content of the exchange between Gabriel and Mary is evidence from Holy Scripture.

The statement is there, but it demands that the reader think not in English language, but in Hellenistic Greek. Ie., one must be attentive and remember that the Gospel of Luke was not written in English and thus is more fully and accurately understood in its original linguistic ground.

Exactly, and that we aren't thinking of what happened more than 2000 years ago in the 21st-century mindset. Good gravy.

 

[Dorothea]

What you have yet to demonstrate is that Mary made a vow of chastity, or that she had intentions of never engaging in conjugal relations for the rest of her life.

The Bible is going to write that? Give me a break. The Bible isn't centered on that, obviously. But in a matter of common knowledge, it is mentioned in Luke, not explicitly, but in Greek, it is more clear. You choose to read it through 21st century, individualistic American ideology.

 

[Dorothea]

Let's flip this around:

What proof is there that Mary DID have sexual relations with Joseph? The references to Jesus's brothers and sisters is quite easily explained by Joseph having children from a prior marriage, or that they were cousins.

Some find it implausable that a man would refrain from having sex with his wife.

I find it entirely plausible that Mary remained a virgin. Joseph was a Jewish, God-fearing man who was told by an angel that his bride-to-be would give birth to his saviour -- the Christ. I can easily imagine that such a man would set aside his sexual desires for his wife out of respect for the womb that carried God Himself.

Yes, I know. It's a no-brainer to me. Obviously these people have put blinders on and don't want to see this. So we get nowhere in conversations.

 

[Dorothea]

I think that people aren't aware of the ramifications of what would have happened if Joseph did have relations with Mary. People think in such simple terms: if Joseph married Mary, then they had sex! Hur hur! Let's assume the Jews accepted Jesus wholeheartedly as savior:

Jews: Wow! Jesus, you really are the Son of God, the promised Messiah!

Jesus: Yep.

Jews: Your parents Mary and Joseph must be very proud!

Jesus: Well, just as a point of theology, I was conceived by the Holy Spirit as was foretold in the prophets. My mother was a virgin when I was born. Joseph isn't my biological father.

Jews: WOW! Praise our Lord! A miracle and a fulfillment of the prophets! Your mother was a virgin when you were conceived? Wow!

Jesus: Yep.

Jews: But...wait a sec. Your mother, Mary, had other children, right?

Jesus: Yep.

Jews: So...you're saying that Joseph had sex with Mary?

Jesus: Well, yeah.

Jews: So...you're saying that Joseph had sex with the womb that carried the Messiah to earth, the womb which carried our Lord, the very same virgin womb that was indwelt by the Holy Spirit itself?

Jesus: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Oh, there's Joseph now. Maybe you should go talk to him.

Jews: *riot*

I find it very hard to believe that such a devout Jewish man who was visited by an angel and also had enough honor to marry Mary even though she conceived by the Holy Spirit would then turn around and - not to be crass - have "sloppy seconds" with the woman who carried the Messiah. No Jew who understood the Messianic prophesies would act in such a way.

No devout man in his right mind would've touched her in that way, but only honored her.

 

[Adam Warlock]

No devout man in his right mind would've touched her in that way, but only honored her.

Amen!!!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

No devout man in his right mind would've touched her in that way, but only honored her.

Because the loving sharing of marital intimacies is a dirty, sinful, impure thing for the wife?

Odd, because faith and faithfulness would cause a man to love his wife MORE, not LESS, it seems to me. Or do you think most men love their wives MORE if they are faithless and disobedient and far from the Lord?

In any case, this assumption that Joseph considered marital intimacies something that would make Mary impure, sinful, "dirty" is not confirmation of a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty of Truth - it's just an assumption. Another could say, "Joseph Smith wouldn't lie about finding those plates ERGO it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty of Truth that he did." I doubt many here would so embrace that apologetic.





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