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Do you consider conception to be the actual time of conception or the event of conception ?1. Being a virgin and yet have conceived a child is EXTREMELY unsual, it seems to me. Do you know of one other case besides Mary?
2. You seem to be missing the point: The 381 edition of the Creed says NOTHING about how often Mary did or did not have sex during Her lifetime. It does not say, "Who was conceived of Mary who had no sex ever." The whole point is the INCARNATION of Jesus, His being CONCEPTION. And yes, it seems to me that it IS unusual for someone to conceive a child and yet still be a virgin.
If Mary ceased to be a virgin, then it is a denial of her personhood to refer to her in the Creed as the Virgin Mary.
Absurd. The context is the incarnation of Jesus, not the death of Mary. It s speaking of the Incarnation of Jesus - and that Mary was a virgin. It is not speaking of the death of Mary - and that she was a virgin. It does not say, "incarnate of Mary who had no sex ever." It does not say "Incarnate of Mary who died a virgin." You are forcing MUCH into the Creed that's not there.
And you are failing to remember I do not claim she was not always a virgin. NO denomination but yours, the RCC and perhaps the OOC has any stand at all on how often Our Lady had sex - the rest of us are SILENT. We don't say She had sex one time. Or 5 times. Or 500 times. Or never at all. Nor does the Creed. It says Jesus was INCARNATE (the context) of the Virgin Mary. It does NOT say, "Mary died a virgin." It does not say, "Incarnate of Mary who had no sex EVER." YOU are the one insisting this is a dogmatic fact of highest certainty. YOU are the one insisting that how often She had sex is a matter of greatest, highest importance - Her sex life matters to the highest degree possible. I'm ONLY trying to get at the evidence to support that - and that She had sex exactly ZERO times. The fact and why how often She had sex is a matter of greatest importance and what evidence makes it "of greatest certainty of Truth." I'm all ears. But I disagree that the 381 edition of the creed is that evidence.
Mary's personhood is not confined to the period of her life before the Incarnation.
To call her "Virgin Mary" in your interpretative ground is to refer to Mary as a portion of her life; it is to deny her full personhood.
Perpetual?
It says BORN of the Virgin Mary - teaching that she was a virgin at His birth.
Where does the Creed say, "Born of Mary who had no sex ever?"
.
Right. It has NOTHING to do with her status as such at the moment of Her death (or undeath, depending on your view there) and continuously up to and including that. Thus, it has NOTHING to so with the DOGMA of Mary Had No Sex EVER........
In simple terms the greek grammar does not justify it. Present tense has the future connotation into it.... That is of course if you accept the ...grammar as it is.
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times] PRESENT[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]CONTINUOUS ACTION
TENSE[/FONT]
HABITUAL ACTION
OFTEN REFLECTS A LIFESTYLE
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[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]http://www.preceptaustin.org/new_page_40.htm
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I thought Jesus had siblings
"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him."
(Matthew 12:46)
1. The angel says to Mary, "You will conceive a child and name him Jesus?"
The angel doesn't specify when she will conceive the child.
since she is a virgin at the present time, but will conceive the child in the future
Mary does not ask "When shall this be?"
In fact, as we look at the grammar, the FAR more likely interpretation is the one that agrees with the ancient Catholic Tradition that the Incarnation and the Annunciation happened ON THE SAME DAY and that Mary (somehow) knew that. THAT Catholic Tradition fits the grammar and the verse you quoted FAR better, in MY opinion, that trying to make the present active into the future perfect.
Exactly. The fulfillment of the prophecy could have been in Her hearing. It is grammatically VERY possible that the Incarnation and the Annunciation happened ON THE SAME DAY. This is the ancient Catholic Tradition, which is why you celebrated the Annunication on March 25 (do the math). There is nothing - absolutely nothing - in the angel's message that grammatically mandates that the Incarnation would happen 25 years (or even one year) in the future when (perhaps) She and St. Joseph would have been joined together. The ancient Catholic Tradition (which oddly you are entirely, completely disregarding and rejecting) is that the Annunciation and Incarnation happened TOGETHER and that Mary (somehow) knew that the Incarnation was an immediate thing. If your Tradition about all this is correct, then the grammar here makes perfectly good sense. And it all fits the grammar used in the text (which may be the foundation for the ancient Catholic Tradition you are dismissing and rejecting).
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Yes, she is stressing that She IS a virgin.
She says nothing about any vow (or the content thereof). She says nothing about how often she intents to have sex during Her entire lifetime on Earth - especially to the level of highest certainty (dogma).
You are assuming that the future tense applies to the moment of Her death (or was it undeath). And again, your chief "problem" seems to be with CATHOLIC Tradition regarding this verse, namely that the Incarnation (the fulfillment of this prophecy - prophecies always given in the future tense) and the Annunication happened TOGETHER, on the same day. You want this to say (dogmatically, to the highest level of certainty) that this fulfillment will be months or years or decades in the future. The verse does not STATE (or even remotely imply) that your Catholic Tradition is wrong and that you were in error to celebrate the Annunciation on March 25.
True, so it must be hard for you to state - to the highest level of certainty possible - that the text indicates She thought this would be years or decades in the future (and thus the Catholic Tradition is wrong).
Again, while the text says NOTHING to remotely indicate that Mary took some vow and the content of such, and says NOTHING about how often Mary intends (much less DID or DID NOT) have sex during the course of Her entire pilgramage on Earth. NOTHING to support the Dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever. IMO, the ancient Catholic Tradition you are (curiously) so dismissing and rejecting is a far more likely situation, textually. And if so, then it ONLY speaks of Her virgin status ON THAT DAY - not on the day of Her death (or undeath - depending on your dogma on that).
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Why you prefer to use the term "no sex ever" instead of virgin Josiah?
Joseph was married before and was a widower
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