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Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant, a Holy and Pure Vessel.
The Ark of the Old Covenant was built to exact dimensions, wood and the purest gold
What do you think the vows a woman might take in Numbers 30 are referring to? Those by which she would "bind herself", and her father and/or husband would have such an interest in?
Document that.
I know of NOTHING that indicates that Mary was made of wood and purist gold.
Scripture ONLY indicates that Jesus dwelt in the world. Does that make the world a wooden box, specifically the long lost Ark of the Covenant?
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How does one quote an unwritten tradition that was passed on to the next generation and from that one to the next. I am referring to Mary's vow of chastity. Awareness of her perpetual virginity and vow certainly existed in apostolic time as is supported by Scripture in Luke 1:34. Mary would not have remained a virgin unless she had made a vow to God.Please quote from just 5 of those Jewish Christians in Palestine during the First Century that state, as dogma, that Mary had no sex ever. Just 5 will establish your point.
What vow? Would you please document that content of such and Her making of such? Thanks.
The Apostolic Tradition is transmitted first and foremost by apostolic succession in the episcopate and divine teaching office of the Church.Yes. How does that suggest that it is Apostolic and true?
Not if the inference is based on the assumption that Mary was aware of the biological facts of life. By the age of 14 she would have been.1. How is it possible to "infer with certainty?" Isn't that a contradiction?
If someone offered a non-smoker a cigarette, he would likely say, "No thanks. I don't smoke," meaning he never smokes, and has no intention of starting. If a smoker was offered a cigarette, he could say, "Not right now. I won't be havving a cigarette until after lunch, " meaning he does smoke and intends to have a cigarette in the future. Luke's use of the present tense denotes a state or condition, not an instant in time. The angel Gabriel offered Mary a child. Like the non-smoker, she meant No, thanks. I don't have children and have no intention of having any. But she accepted the angel's offer after he explained to her that the conception would be a supernatural one.2. She says "I do not know a man." It's PRESENT tense. For the DOGMA of "Mary Had No Sex Ever" to be substantiated, it would have to be future perfect. It's not. If I state, "I'm a virgin" that has ZERO relevance to whether I will die a virgin. If I state, "I live in an apartment," that does not mean that I will continuously live in an apartment up to and including the moment of my death. PRESENT tense has nothing whatsoever to do with PERPETUALITY. Nothing.
Virginity is essentially a state that does not necessarily have to change in the course of time. Jesus was conceived at the moment Mary pronounced her fiat (Lk 1:38), and that wasn't until the angel assured her she would not conceive the child by the natural way. As a Jew, Mary did not expext the Messiah to be the Divine Word in the Trinity.I think the Catholic Tradition here is FAR more likely - although again, speculation. That Tradition is that the Incarnation and the Annunciation happened AT THE SAME TIME, which is why the Annunication is celebrated exactly 9 months before Christmas. Long before this idea of Mary Had No Sex Ever, we had this Tradition - that Jesus was conceived at the moment of the annuniation that you reference. Hence, could it be that Mary was right? That Mary understood this? Thus, She asks Her question in the PRESENT tense - knowing the prophecy is a PRESENT reality? IF She was wrong, and the prophecy was that She'd conceive 25 years in the future, would she not have asked Her question in the future tense? IF the ancient Tradition you celebrate every year by celebrating the Annunciation on March 25th, then Mary's question AND THE VERB SHE USED makes perfect sense: She understood the prophecy to be fulfilled IN HER HEARING - not 20, 30, 40 or 50 years in the future. Thus, Her FUTURE status had nothing to do with anything, it was Her PRESENT situation that is the all of this. "How can this be since I AM (present active) a virgin?"
John knew Mary, and Ignatius of Antioch knew John and writes: "The virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world". This is one mystery alongside the virgin birth of Jesus that Ignatius refers to in his letter. If Mary had other children by Joseph, then her virginity could not have been kept hidden, for she no longer would have been a virgin. Irenaeaus (180) and Justin Martyr (155) call Mary "The Virgin".Please quote from anyone who knew Mary or ANYONE who knew Her that states that Mary Had No Sex EVER. Just one.
Nearly 600 years after Her death (or was it undeath)....
How did Pope Martin 1 know that Mary Had No Sex EVER?
Do you know why he cared SO very, very much about that tidbit of Her marital relations?
You can't be serious.
The Birth of Jesus Foretold
26 In the sixth month of Elizabeths pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgins name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you. 29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacobs descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.
34 How will this be, Mary asked the angel, since I am a virgin?
35 The angel answered, The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.
38 I am the Lords servant, Mary answered. May your word to me be fulfilled. Then the angel left her.
Mary Visits Elizabeth
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariahs home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Marys greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!
You can't be serious. There is absolutely nothing in your quoted texts that states or implies that Mary is or was the Ark of the Covenant, a wooden box constructed of the finest wood and purest gold.
Document that.
I know of NOTHING that indicates that Mary was made of wood and purist gold.
Scripture ONLY indicates that Jesus dwelt in the world. Does that make the world a wooden box, specifically the long lost Ark of the Covenant?
.
You can't be serious. There is absolutely nothing in your quoted texts that states or implies that Mary is or was the Ark of the Covenant, a wooden box constructed of the finest wood and purest gold.
You can't be serious. There is absolutely nothing in your quoted texts that states or implies that Mary is or was the Ark of the Covenant, a wooden box constructed of the finest wood and purest gold.
Sure, if you are only paying attention to what is physical and literal, but I think you would have to be deliberately obtuse to see how the burning bush and the Ark prefigure Mary, who bore God incarnate within her, without being burned.
The Birth of Jesus Foretold
26 In the sixth month of Elizabeths pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgins name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you. 29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacobs descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.
34 How will this be, Mary asked the angel, since I am a virgin?
35 The angel answered, The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.
38 I am the Lords servant, Mary answered. May your word to me be fulfilled. Then the angel left her.
Mary Visits Elizabeth
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariahs home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Marys greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!
How does one quote an unwritten tradition that was passed on to the next generation and from that one to the next.
Josiah's criteria is nonsensical
And the rest of the early Church must have missed the memo regarding the "vow." Eg:Her virginity also itself was on this account more pleasing and accepted, in that it was not that Christ being conceived in her, rescued it beforehand from a husband who would violate it, Himself to preserve it; but, before He was conceived, chose it, already dedicated to God, as that from which to be born. This is shown by the words which Mary spoke in answer to the Angel announcing to her her conception; How, says she, shall this be, seeing I know not a man? Which assuredly she would not say, unless she had before vowed herself unto God as a virgin. But, because the habits of the Israelites as yet refused this, she was espoused to a just man, who would not take from her by violence, but rather guard against violent persons, what she had already vowed. Although, even if she had said this only, How shall this take place? and had not added, seeing I know not a man, certainly she would not have asked, how, being a female, she should give birth to her promised Son, if she had married with purpose of sexual intercourse. (Augustine, Holy Virginity, 4)
Yup. Nothing - N.O.T.H.I.N.G.- about Mary Had No Sex Ever. Thanks for pointing that out.
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IMO, this deletion of the present tense and then insertion of the future perfect indicates nothing except a willingness (and necessity) to CHANGE what the text says. It also indicates a desertion of Catholic Tradition (which I was told by Catholics pre-dates the concept that Mary had no sex ever) - that the Incarnation and the Annunication happened TOGETHER - at the same time - which is why the RCC and EOC both celebrate the Annunciation exactly 9 months to the day before Christmas. IF this ancient Tradition is true, then Mary's question IN THE PRESENT TENSE (the original - before the RCC "interpreters" deleted that and replaced it with a future perfect verb) makes perfect and natural sense: "How can this be since I AM a virgin?" (PRESENT active tense). IF She wrongly understood that this Incarnation would be 25 years in the future, after She was united with her husband and had a plethora of children, then why would She ask the question about the PRESENT, about today? The natural sense of the actual word in the text (which I realize, Catholics just delete and replace) does NOTHING to support that Mary took some (as yet entirely undocumented) mysterious "vow" or supports that Mary died (or not) as a virgin, that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER.
Josiah's criteria is nonsensical anyway. It's like demanding 5 1st century Christians articulating the dogma of the Trinity – or for that matter, demanding 5 Christians who said Christ was "in, with, and under" the bread as Josiah espouses and attempts to defend vehemently since that is his own belief.
And the rest of the early Church must have missed the memo regarding the "vow." Eg:
Her virginity also itself was on this account more pleasing and accepted, in that it was not that Christ being conceived in her, rescued it beforehand from a husband who would violate it, Himself to preserve it; but, before He was conceived, chose it, already dedicated to God, as that from which to be born. This is shown by the words which Mary spoke in answer to the Angel announcing to her her conception; How, says she, shall this be, seeing I know not a man? Which assuredly she would not say, unless she had before vowed herself unto God as a virgin. But, because the habits of the Israelites as yet refused this, she was espoused to a just man, who would not take from her by violence, but rather guard against violent persons, what she had already vowed. Although, even if she had said this only, How shall this take place? and had not added, seeing I know not a man, certainly she would not have asked, how, being a female, she should give birth to her promised Son, if she had married with purpose of sexual intercourse. (Augustine, Holy Virginity, 4)
Many Protestants mistakenly assume that the first Church Father known to have explicitly written about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary or her Assumption had invented it or incorporated it from a tradition that had begun in his time and not a transmitted tradition that started with the Apostles. They demand documented proof explicitly put in writing at the time when tradition was transmitted only orally by preaching. And not everything the Apostles and their close associates preached was later explicitly or comprehensively put down in writing.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2, 15 [NKJV]
Pax Christu
J.A.
This would not pose a problem for this Protestant if a certain Church had not dogmatized these traditions and insisted that unless one believes them with complete docility and without question one cannot be saved. However, I am quite unwilling to accept that Church's dogmatization in light of the fact that they and they only hold this view. No other Church in Christendom has elevated these traditions to this level.
That and the denial of development of doctrine (except for Protestant doctrines like the canon, Trinity, Incarnation, Rapture, double predestination, and a few others). Even though doctrines developed within Scripture itself!Many Protestants mistakenly assume that the first Church Father known to have explicitly written about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary or her Assumption had invented it or incorporated it from a tradition that had begun in his time and not a transmitted tradition that started with the Apostles. They demand documented proof explicitly put in writing at the time when tradition was transmitted only orally by preaching. And not everything the Apostles and their close associates preached was later explicitly or comprehensively put down in writing.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2, 15 [NKJV]
Pax Christu
J.A.
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