Lets talk about the supposed vow of chastity of Mary

[Dorothea]

This "vow" word. I don't recall it being used in the Bible for other celibates/virgins, such as John the Baptist, or when Moses became celibate after his encounter with God, or the prophets who were not married. Does this mean that they weren't really virgins/celibates because they didn't make a "vow"?

 

[mrmccormo]

Okay, so this is bothering me. Do you personally believe there are 50,000 denominations? Has anyone on this thread ever asserted that there are 50,000 denominations? If not, why do you insist on using that figure?

It comes across as manipulative and dishonest to use the numbers in this way.

That's the status quo for CalifornianJosiah in this thread.

When asked to quantify his reference to 50,000 denominations, or when asked to prove that only two of those 50,000 believe that Mary remained a virgin, or when asked to explain why exactly it matters what 49,998 (his numbers) denominations believe, CalifornianJosiah remained silent on all counts. When asked to explain why we need to offer 5 quotes from 150 AD or earlier, he has remained silent. When asked to explan why the numerous dated quotes we've given from early church fathers, church history, and even Martin Luther aren't valid, he has remained silent. He has acted that way in regards to numerous other questions.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

[I make my living in the area of research, so this is an issue I work with, at least 40 hours a week]


Logically, no.

There are 3 possibilities to ANY question:
1. It is correct (to a nearly infinite range of degrees of certainty)
2. It is incorrect (this too can can ranges of certainty)
3. It cannot be determined.
ALL three are "logical."
ALL three are "intellectually HONEST." (Interesting great emphasis is given about HONESTY, specifically INTELLECTUAL honest - not faith).


Let's say it is stated, "There if life on other planets."
That, then, becomes the position being evaluated.
Some sound outside rule/canon/norma normans needs to be employed.
Some sound outside process of arbitration employed.
Then this process declares if it has been "normed" correct, incorrect or if it is not capable of being normed at all.

Since this is a topic of some interest to me, and I've engaged in discussions of it since I was perhaps 7 years old, I can tell you that almost universally, all scientists (and even nearly all pure laypeople) are of the opinion that this is unnormed either way - at this point, there is insufficient data (thus the GREAT desire of some to secure more information through research). The answer is desired but as yet can't be determined. All this is generally regarded as quite "logical" and yes (this IS important)... "intellectually HONEST." That doesn't mean one can't have a passionate OPINION (many do!) but there's no dogma or heresy here, it simply is not normed right or wrong at this point.




In this thread, we are exploring a vow of Mary. It is presented that Mary made a vow specifically to God and that the exact content of said vow is that Mary will have no sex ever. This is all in the context of a position given in the very strongest form possible - that it is a dogmatic FACT of highest importance and greatest certainty of Truth (as high of a "bar" as possible to construct - thus mandating as high of a level of substantiation as is possible) that Mary Had No Sex EVER. That's the position.

There are three equally logical conclusions, 3 possible ways this might be arbitrated:
1. It is correct (in this case, to the level claimed)
2. It is incorrect (actually, anything less than the level claimed COULD be so regarded)
3. It cannot be determined either way (insufficient data).


In this regard, two (of the 50,000 + denominations some Catholics insist exist) regard #1 as the conclusion - the facts and data presented are so extremely convincing - to the very highest possible level - that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance for all to know and of greatest certainty of Truth that Mary made said vow and that she had no ever. Some here in this thread are seeking to know what this so powerful corpus of facts are.

There are none taking postion #2. That it is incorrect. There is not a single denomination known to me that says, "Mary made no such vow and she had lotsa sex." None are saying that on ANY level - as dogma, as doctrine, as teaching, as opinion - not on ANY level. None are saying it's wrong.

There are 49,998 taking position #3. That to date, insufficent data has been presented to document that it is a matter of HIGHEST IMPORTANCE to all the world's 7 billion people AND that it's a matter of GREATEST TRUTH that Mary Had No Sex EVER. Some might be comfortable with the view on a much lower level but that's not the position. But in any case, to date, 49,998 are holding to position #3 - it cannot be determined, giving the data that exists, if it is correct or incorrect that "it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all the world and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER." TO DATE, I agree with those 49,998. But I'm VERY interested in the data and I have made no final conclusion - I'm a seeker.






.

Okay, so this is bothering me. Do you personally believe there are 50,000 denominations? Has anyone on this thread ever asserted that there are 50,000 denominations? If not, why do you insist on using that figure?

As you stressed, it's a claim of some Catholics. Take up the number with them. If you like 5,000 better or even 500, it really has little impact on the situation. Read what you quoted from me.

Also, do you think there are more people in the denominations which hold position #3 or position #1?

The problem is, it cannot be concluded that EVERY individual which a denomination CLAIMS are "members" holds to every position of said denomination.


One could do a scientific poll of all Christians currently alive- but I've not seen reliable data (or actually any data) from that on this question.


My OWN - extremely unreliable- prue opinion is MOST Christians don't think it matters much, one way or the other, certainly not "to the highest level of importance" possible. In fact, I personally suspect you'd even find a lot who think how often couples have sex (if at all) really isn't anyone else' business - certainty not as a matter of "highest importance of all." But, again, I have no way to know what most Christians think on this. I've not seen any reliable polls on that specific question. Have you?


But this has been about official positions. "The CHURCH" keeps being mentioned, not any current polls of individuals that regard self as Christians. Thus, the discussion has been framed as denominations, their positions and I have abided by that framework.






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[MetanoiaHeart]

It's a claim of many Catholics. Take up the number with them. If you like 5,000 better or even 500, it really has little impact on the situation. Read what you quoted from me.







The problem is, it cannot be concluded that EVERY individual which a denomination CLAIMS are "members" holds to every position of said denomination.


One could do a scientific poll of all Christians currently alive- but I've not seen reliable data (or actually any data) from that on this question.


My OWN - extremely unreliable- prue opinion is MOST Christians don't think it matters much, one way or the other, certainly not "to the highest level of importance" possible. In fact, I personally suspect you'd even find a lot who think how often couples have sex (if at all) really isn't anyone else' business - certainty not as a matter of "highest importance of all." But, again, I have no way to know what most Christians think on this. I've not seen any reliable polls on that specific question. Have you?


But this has been about official positions. "The CHURCH" keeps being mentioned, not any current polls of individuals that regard self as Christians. Thus, the discussion has been framed as denominations, their positions and I have abided by that framework.






.

Why did you leave out part of my post? Here, I'll ask you again.

Do you consider Oriental Orthodox their own denomination? Because in the 50,000 figure you keep using, it most certainly is (not to mention, in that overblown figure each specific Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction - Greek, Russian, etc. - is also considered a "denomination", so why do you use that number and then say only 2 of the 50,000 hold position #1 when that isn't even true?

Do you think it's honest to say 2 of the 50,000 hold position #1?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Do you consider Oriental Orthodox their own denomination? Because in the 50,000 figure you keep using, it most certainly is (not to mention, in that overblown figure each specific Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction - Greek, Russian, etc. - is also considered a "denomination", so why do you use that number and then say only 2 of the 50,000 hold position #1 when that isn't even true?

Do you think it's honest to say 2 of the 50,000 hold position #1?

AGAIN, as you stressed, what was said is that "SOME CATHOLICS insist that there are 50,000 + denominations. I never claimed such. And AGAIN, as I said, if you want to go with 5,000 or 500, it has very little impact on what I posted (all of which you seem to have entirely ignored - including the context thereof and the post to which I was responding).

I think it is HONEST to say that a small minority of denominations hold to postion #1 and that all others (an overwhelming majority) to position #3. Since I've never claimed how many denominations there are (as you stressed, I noted what some CATHOLICS claim, not me), I can't say how tiny that percentage is of those taking #1 but that is largely irrelevant to what I posted (which, perhaps, you didn't read).







.

 

[Philothei]

Every EO convert or believer are adviced about the
EV since it is a dogma of our Church. Nope you have no evidence that there is a minority (and what kind of minority we are talking about here 1% ?) that do not beleive in it. Persoanally I have met only inquirers who were hesitant to beleive in the EV of Mary. I think it would be pretty rare to meet some who do not beleive. Even agnostics in Greece would agree that it is so. Why would anyone doubt the Fathers who if we do not trust for their ability to "view" the truth then would we trust them to put together the canon of the Bible? Or the trinity?

 

[Philothei]

Josiah..would you agree that if we needed "evidence" fromt the 1st Century we would NOT have even the New Testament... There are no direct manuscripts out there...We have copies there.. not originals.

We cannot put God under the microscope... we cannot do that as God is NOT of physical essence but above it! So physical evidence would be futile .... Finding God's DNA would be a foolish endeavor would it?

 

[MetanoiaHeart]

AGAIN, as you stressed, what was said is that "SOME CATHOLICS insist that there are 50,000 + denominations. I never claimed such. And AGAIN, as I said, if you want to go with 5,000 or 500, it has very little impact on what I posted (all of which you seem to have entirely ignored - including the context thereof and the post to which I was responding).

I think it is HONEST to say that a small minority of denominations hold to postion #1 and that all others (an overwhelming majority) to position #3. Since I've never claimed how many denominations there are (as you stressed, I noted what some CATHOLICS claim, not me), I can't say how tiny that percentage is of those taking #1 but that is largely irrelevant to what I posted (which, perhaps, you didn't read).

That's not directly answering my question. You take the position that "some Catholics" hold this number, but those same Catholics would not say only two of those denominations hold #1 because it would not be consistent with the breakdown of denominations represented in the 50,000.

If you are going to use the 50,000 figure, then it would be HONEST to be consistent with it in determining how many of that 50,000 hold position 1.

If it truly has very little impact on your point, then why bother with using these numbers in the first place when it looks so dishonest and manipulative?

 

[MetanoiaHeart]

Every EO convert or believer are adviced about the
EV since it is a dogma of our Church. Nope you have no evidence that there is a minority (and what kind of minority we are talking about here 1% ?) that do not beleive in it. Persoanally I have met only inquirers who were hesitant to beleive in the EV of Mary. I think it would be pretty rare to meet some who do not beleive. Even agnostics in Greece would agree that it is so. Why would anyone doubt the Fathers who if we do not trust for their ability to "view" the truth then would we trust them to put together the canon of the Bible? Or the trinity?

I think it would be rare, too, simply because the EV of Mary is so much more than "Mary had no sex EVER" and actually says more about the Incarnation than it does about Mary. I think many protestants have an issue with EV because they are so focused on the minor aspect of her virginity, her "sex life", that they can't see the deeper meaning. But because it's the deeper meaning which is focused on in EO and Catholic churches, it would be very surprising to me if a large percentage did not believe in it.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

If you are going to use the 50,000 figure, then it would be HONEST to be consistent with it in determining how many of that 50,000 hold position 1.

As you keep stressing, it's not my number.

YET AGAIN, reduce it to 5000. Heck reduce it to 500. It makes no material difference to my point (which you are entirely evading and ignoring). Pick a number. I won't even ask if it has any shred of truth to it, just pick a number of how many denominations you think currently exist in the world. I don''t know (which is why I never said - as you've stressed). I've read that there are 300-350 Lutheran denominations in the world (about 20 in the USA alone, there use to be over 100 in the USA), but give a number. It still doesn't change that we have two denominations (the RCC and EOC) that hold to position #1, it seems none that hold to #2 and all the rest to #3. IF you want to give an exact number, then I can give the percentages in each category. But again, I'm not sure why you are so fixated on this CATHOLIC claim and so totally ignoring the whole point of the post. But okay, I'm ubercooperative and willing, give your number (it almost certainty will be in the thousands considering there at at least 300 just Lutheran ones). My point will be the same.





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[MetanoiaHeart]

As you keep stressing, it's not my number.

YET AGAIN, reduce it to 5000. Heck reduce it to 500. It makes no material difference to my point (which you are entirely evading and ignoring). Pick a number. I won't even ask if it has any shred of truth to it, just pick a number of how many denominations you think currently exist in the world. I don''t know (which is why I never said - as you've stressed). I've read that there are 300-350 Lutheran denominations in the world (about 20 in the USA alone, there use to be over 100 in the USA), but give a number. It still doesn't change that we have two denominations (the RCC and EOC) that hold to position #1, it seems none that hold to #2 and all the rest to #3. IF you want to give an exact number, then I can give the percentages in each category. But again, I'm not sure why you are so fixated on this CATHOLIC claim and so totally ignoring the whole point of the post. But okay, I'm ubercooperative and willing, give your number (it almost certainty will be in the thousands considering there at at least 300 just Lutheran ones). My point will be the same.





.

I think you are deliberately missing my point.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Josiah..would you agree

Friend, IMO, you keep getting our positions reversed. I'm NOT claiming (and basing a whole apologetic for a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty) on: "All those before 150 believed this!" Or "All those that lived during the time of the Apostles believed this!" Or "All those from the beginning - which I insist is 33 AD- believed this!" I never said such about anything or used such an apologetic for anything, you have me confused with your fellow Orthodox and some Catholics. But since the claim is of a dogmatic fact, since it is the foundation of the apologetic being presented, since the whole point of was presented as such depends on the truthfulness of it, why do you think it entirely irrelevant? PERHAPS your "problem" isn't with me at all?






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[Thekla]

If denominations are purely and only a synonym for particular dogmatic positions, then comparing positions of denominations may have some merit.

If denominations are the names of Churches, and Churches are communities of persons who are Christians who are in those Churches named as denominations, then the comparison of the positions of denominations is actually a stand-in for comparing the positions of a population of persons.

The second possibility is more consistent with the teaching that people make up the body of Christ.

In this sense, the analysis should be interested in the number of persons withing each denomination. A reasonable margin of error may be used to capture individual persons within each denomination who represent indecision or other reasonably assumed variation.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

As you keep stressing, it's not my number.

YET AGAIN, reduce it to 5000. Heck reduce it to 500. It makes no material difference to my point (which you are entirely evading and ignoring). Pick a number. I won't even ask if it has any shred of truth to it, just pick a number of how many denominations you think currently exist in the world. I don''t know (which is why I never said - as you've stressed). I've read that there are 300-350 Lutheran denominations in the world (about 20 in the USA alone, there use to be over 100 in the USA), but give a number. It still doesn't change that we have two denominations (the RCC and EOC) that hold to position #1, it seems none that hold to #2 and all the rest to #3. IF you want to give an exact number, then I can give the percentages in each category. But again, I'm not sure why you are so fixated on this CATHOLIC claim and so totally ignoring the whole point of the post. But okay, I'm ubercooperative and willing, give your number (it almost certainty will be in the thousands considering there at at least 300 just Lutheran ones). My point will be the same.



.

I think you are deliberately missing my point.

With all due respect, I think you are.

Especially since it was YOU that stressed that it's NOT my claim but that of "some Catholics."

Especially since the number is largely irrelevant to my point, whether it's 49,998:2 or 4,998:2 or even 498:2 doesn't really change the point, you have not at all contested.

Especially since TWICE now, I've invite you to supply whatever number you want. I've agreed to just docilicly "go" what whatever number you want to supply - entirely irrespective of any truthfulness to it. It won't change my point - and I think you know if which is why you aren't doing it.

READ the post. The point is clear. If you want to respond to what I said, I welcome that. I think your debate with "some Catholics" and not me is irrelevant and should be taken to those Catholics, not me.






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[CaliforniaJosiah]

In this sense, the analysis should be interested in the number of persons withing each denomination. A reasonable margin of error may be used to capture individual persons within each denomination who represent indecision or other reasonably assumed variation.

[ONE of the things making this discussion so difficult is the constant changing of the subject and apologetic ]


Alright. Got it. So, you want to now depart from "the church" - from any corporate or formal or institutional or church councils or Tradition. Now, you want to change everything to what the majority of those claiming to be Christians hold on this point. Okay. Let's forget everything in this thread so far and do what you want.

Problem is, I know of no reliable survey done on this very question of all believers worldwise (or a scientific subsection thereof). It would be interesting: "Do you hold that it is a dogmatic fact of highest possible importance and of greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER?" I don't know what the result would be, but the "problem" I have with your discussion is that we have no way to discuss it since there appears to be no data on it. IF you have a reliable, recent, scientific poll results of such (worldwide), enter such into the discussion. Otherwise, I think you've lead us down a (very short) dead end. I'd rather return to the previous issue - and frame it institutionally. And yes - since at least some here think that Truth matters in dogma (no less when it about the most esteemed woman in all of human history), to the question of verification of Truth to the level claimed. But that's up to you. Present the survey results or join in nothing that's a discussion impossible to have.















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[Thekla]

So the question becomes (continuing from the last post):

which method - comparing denominations, or comparing the population of persons within denominations - should be used for the analysis ?

The answer may vary depending on one's personal belief but, tmk, all denominations teach that the Church is the body of Christ and is made up of persons.

 

[Thekla]

[ONE of the things making this discussion so difficult is the constant changing of the subject and apologetic ]


Alright. Got it. So, you want to now depart from "the church" - from any corporate or formal or institutional or church councils or Tradition. Now, you want to change everything to what the majority of those claiming to be Christians hold on this point. Okay. Let's forget everything in this thread so far and do what you want.

Problem is, I know of no reliable survey done on this very question of all believers worldwise (or a scientific subsection thereof). It would be interesting: "Do you hold that it is a dogmatic fact of highest possible importance and of greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER?" I don't know what the result would be, but the "problem" I have with your discussion is that we have no way to discuss it since there appears to be no data on it. IF you have a reliable, recent, scientific poll results of such (worldwide), enter such into the discussion. Otherwise, I think you've lead us down a (very short) dead end. I'd rather return to the previous issue - and frame it institutionally. And yes - since at least some here think that Truth matters in dogma (no less when it about the most esteemed woman in all of human history), to the question of verification of Truth to the level claimed. But that's up to you. Present the survey results or join in nothing that's a discussion impossible to have.

I'm not "changing" anything; I am pointing out that there is more than one option for comparison.

And, as I stated, a reasonable margin of error may be assigned for potential variation within Churches.

But, for those persons within denomination where a particular position is dogmatic, it is only reasonable to assume that the majority of persons at least assent to the dogma.

For example, in any denomination for whom the Resurrection of Christ as an actual event is dogmatic, it should be reasonable to assume that the majority of persons within that denomination do assent to that dogma.

Furthermore, I would expect someone who adheres to Sola Scriptura as a norm to use the Scriptural definition of Church for the purpose of evaluation. Thus, the SS position, as a matter of consistency, would measure the number of persons not the number of denominations.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

So the question becomes (continuing from the last post):

which method - comparing denominations, or comparing the population of persons within denominations - should be used for the analysis ?

The answer may vary depending on one's personal belief but, tmk, all denominations teach that the Church is the body of Christ and is made up of persons.

Well, you chose to change everything - the entire discussion. From the issue of truth and an institutional/historic framework (your position so far) to one of current individual embrace - you want to know what percentage of the 2 billion or so current believers fall into the 3 camps regarding the position: "It is a dogmatic fact of highest possible importance and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever." Those that state: "This is correct!" Those that state, "This not correct." And those that state, "It cannot be determined adequately." The problem with your desire to go off in this entirely new direction is I'm not aware of any data on it, do you have a recent, worldwide, reliable, scientific poll on that question? I don't. Unless you do, I don't know how to discuss what you now would rather discuss - you've derailed this to a very short dead end.



Look: the point was suggested that "logically" there are only two options - it's dogmatically correct or it's dogmatically incorrect. You noted such is "intellectual honesty." I pointed out that's neither logical or intellectually honest (and in fact, is entirely rejected in research - which happens to be my vocation). There is a third option: it cannot be determined either way. Where you got off on a tangent is that I noted what those supporting this dogma (being nice) claim - that there are some 50,000 + denominations (not my claim!) - and that actually, if so, the HUGE majority are in that third camp that you and the other dismissed as "logically" and "intellectually honesty" didn't permit. It matters not if you change the number to one Catholics don't claim - 5,000 or 500 or any number you like, it's still true that the majority are in a position you denied can exist. It not only "logically" can - it does.






.

 

[Thekla]

Well, you chose to change everything - the entire discussion. From the issue of truth and an institutional/historic framework (your position so far) to one of current individual embrace - you want to know what percentage of the 2 billion or so current believers fall into the 3 camps regarding the position: "It is a dogmatic fact of highest possible importance and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever." Those that state: "This is correct!" Those that state, "This not correct." And those that state, "It cannot be determined adequately." The problem with your desire to go off in this entirely new direction is I'm not aware of any data on it, do you have a recent, worldwide, reliable, scientific poll on that question? I don't. Unless you do, I don't know how to discuss what you now would rather discuss - you've derailed this to a very short dead end.

It is not an entirely new direction at all.

You have introduced the idea that a comparison should be made.

I have pointed out that there is more than one way to do your comparison.

I have also pointed out that your preference for the method of comparison is not supported by the Scriptural definition of "Church"
(and denomination is just the name for a Church or aggregate of local Churches).

The idea of comparison - the central point - has not been changed by me at all.

It is still thematically present - and central - in what I have stated.

 

[MetanoiaHeart]

With all due respect, I think you are.

Especially since it was YOU that stressed that it's NOT my claim but that of "some Catholics."

Especially since the number is largely irrelevant to my point, whether it's 49,998:2 or 4,998:2 or even 498:2 doesn't really change the point, you have not at all contested.

Especially since TWICE now, I've invite you to supply whatever number you want. I've agreed to just docilicly "go" what whatever number you want to supply - entirely irrespective of any truthfulness to it. It won't change my point - and I think you know if which is why you aren't doing it.

READ the post. The point is clear. If you want to respond to what I said, I welcome that. I think your debate with "some Catholics" and not me is irrelevant and should be taken to those Catholics, not me.






.

I read your posts. There are two numbers involved:

1. The 50,000 figure that "some Catholics" (and you for your own purposes) use.

2. The number 2 which is your opinion of how many denominations hold to the EV of Mary.

These two numbers are inconsistent because within that 50,000 figure, you would find way more than TWO denominations who hold to EV because they count each jurisdiction of Eastern Orthodox and each of the Eastern Catholic churches and each of the Oriental Orthodox churches (etc etc etc) as individual denominations.

In fact, no matter which number of denominations you use, it is more than TWO which hold to the EV of Mary. You have heard of the Oriental Orthodox, right? Copts, Ethiopian Orthodox, right? Or how about the Assyrian Church of the East which is not in communion with Rome, the EO or the OO?

Where do you get your figure that there are only two denominations that hold this belief?

I don't care what number you use for the total denominations - that isn't my point at all. What I do care about is that you be honest and consistent when comparing the total number with how many hold to the EV of Mary. So if you say 50,000 then you need to look at those 50,000 and count how many of them hold to it. If you want to use the number 300, then you need to count how many of the 300 hold to it.

You can't just say it's 2 of 50,000 when it is not. That is lying.