Lets talk about the supposed vow of chastity of Mary

[washedagain]

I think it will be very interesting to examine this belief, where it originated from and any evidence of such a theory/teaching/belief/doctrine as being legit or true.

(not sure what the official position of the RCC is with this)

 

[washedagain]

20 views and no one wants to tackle this? Interesting.

 

[Incariol]

20 views and no one wants to tackle this? Interesting.

How is it interesting?

 

[washedagain]

How is it interesting?

How is it not interesting... we are up to 35 veiws...

Do you know of this belief?

 

[Incariol]

How is it not interesting... we are up to 35 veiws..

It's a view counter on an internet forum. Honestly, it really doesn't get much more boring than that.

Do you know of this belief?

Yes.

 

[washedagain]

It's a view counter on an internet forum. Honestly, it really doesn't get much more boring than that.



Yes.

OK.... wanna discuss this belief?

 

[justinangel]

I think it will be very interesting to examine this belief, where it originated from and any evidence of such a theory/teaching/belief/doctrine as being legit or true.

(not sure what the official position of the RCC is with this)

When Luke wrote his Gospel, he acknowledged what the apostles preached, what witnesses related, and the contents of the oral tradition concerning the deeds of God in salvation history: sacred Tradition (1:1-4). In apostolic time Mary's perpetual virginity was more common knowledge among the Jewish Christians in Palestine than it was a belief in a divine mystery such as the Incarnation and divinity of Christ. In the beginning Mary's vow of chastity belonged to a private tradition originating in Palestine from those who personally knew her and followed Jesus. It became a belief in the course of time for those Christians farther removed in time and geography in the wider Greco-Roman world.

By reading Luke 1:34, in which Mary asks the angel, "How shall this be, since I do not know a man?" [NAB], we can infer with certainty that she had made a vow of chastity to God. A woman who was already married by betrothal and intended to have marital relations would not ask by what manner she would conceive a child once she was morally permitted to by Mosaic Law. And it wasn't until the angel answered her question that Mary learned the conception of Jesus would be a supernatural one. The evangelist is drawing from the sources I mentioned above. Scripture is not and never has been the only source of knowledge. In fact, the oral and Apostolic Tradition precede Scripture in time, so we have always known by the former before Luke even wrote his Gospel about twelve years after Mary's dormition and transition into heaven.

The Fathers of the Church kept this tradition by affirming Mary's perpetual virginity in their writings. What was originally oral had become sacred as belonging to the deposit of faith. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is our second Marian dogma proclaimed by Pope Martin l at the Lateran Synod in A.D. 649, but it wasn't strictly defined as were the other Marian dogmas by the extraordinary and universal Magisterium. The Pope did not issue an Apostolic Constitution that "defined" this doctrine in detail as were the Immaculate Conception and Assumption by the two later popes, but he anathematized any Catholic who refused to believe in this universal and infallible teaching of the Church. (The infallible teaching on the Trinity wasn't declared dogma until the 4th century at Nicea.) Nor was the synod an ecumenical council, but that was only because it was convoked to refute and condemn the many Eastern bishops who embraced the monothelite heresy, which explains their absence. This heresy was condemned by the entire Church (East and West) at the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople lll later in the same century which ratified Pope Martin's decree and embraced his formula at the local synod at Rome.

Pax Christu
J.A.

 

[washedagain]

Thanks for the reply...

we can infer with certainty that she had made a vow of chastity to God.

Now, show me that Mary DID do that as well as show cultural and biblical support of women making vows of Chastity to God all the while anticipating and actually becoming engaged to be married.

Why would she get engaged? What Jewish girl would ever not consummate her marriage.. it goes against what the word of God says, Go forth and multiply... cleave to your spouse and become one. That is biblical... what is not biblical is to make a vow of chastity and get married...

Thanks. Have a good day.

 

[Incariol]

Thanks for the reply...



Now, show me that Mary DID do that as well as show cultural and biblical support of women making vows of Chastity to God all the while anticipating and actually becoming engaged to be married.

Sure, as soon as you show evidence that Mary was anticipating marriage.

 

[narnia59]

Thanks for the reply...



Now, show me that Mary DID do that as well as show cultural and biblical support of women making vows of Chastity to God all the while anticipating and actually becoming engaged to be married.

Why would she get engaged? What Jewish girl would ever not consummate her marriage.. it goes against what the word of God says, Go forth and multiply... cleave to your spouse and become one. That is biblical... what is not biblical is to make a vow of chastity and get married...

Thanks. Have a good day.

Joseph and Mary were betrothed, which by Jewish law was already legally married. This is why Joseph had to consider divorce when he believed Mary had been unfaithful.

But it is not "un-Biblical" for those who are betrothed (married) to not consummate their relationship. St. Paul allows for that:

1 Corinthians 7:
32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, 34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband. 35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord. 36 If any one thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry--it is no sin. 37 But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well. 38 So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.

If there were ever two people whom it would be proper to "secure their undivided devotion to the Lord" it would be Mary and Joseph since they had been given God himself to raise as a child. And what man would ever more fit this bill than St. Joseph, "But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well."


Aside from that, St. Paul's advice to married people to not deny each other he states was a concession to understanding the nature of human passions, not a command. One cannot say it's un-Biblical for two married people who agree to and can control their passions to forgo relations for the sake of the kingdom. Rare, yes. Un-Biblical, no.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I think it will be very interesting to examine this belief, where it originated from and any evidence of such a theory/teaching/belief/doctrine as being legit or true.

(not sure what the official position of the RCC is with this)

I'm not sure how to discuss this "vow of chastity" until we have documentation as to what it was and that she made it.


In my years in Catholicism and since, NO ONE has yet offered ANYTHING on either of those foundational issues.



.

 

[washedagain]

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Sure, as soon as you show evidence that Mary was anticipating marriage.

She was engaged to Joseph..

 

[washedagain]

I'm not sure how to discuss this "vow of chastity" until we have documentation as to what it was and that she made it.


In my years in Catholicism and since, NO ONE has yet offered ANYTHING on either of those foundational issues.



.

Exactly.. that is why I would like to examine it's origins... knowing what we know of Jewish culture of that time (or anytime) I have yet to find such a notion of of young Jewish girls making vows to God to stay chaste and also going ahead and getting married.

 

[washedagain]

but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.

Are you suggesting that a married person can't have undivided devotion to the Lord because they have sex?

 

[Incariol]

She was engaged to Joseph..

Yes? Do you have any proof that she wanted/anticipated a marriage?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In apostolic time Mary's perpetual virginity was more common knowledge among the Jewish Christians in Palestine than it was a belief in a divine mystery such as the Incarnation and divinity of Christ.

Please quote from just 5 of those Jewish Christians in Palestine during the First Century that state, as dogma, that Mary had no sex ever. Just 5 will establish your point.

In the beginning Mary's vow of chastity

What vow? Would you please document that content of such and Her making of such? Thanks.

It became a belief in the course of time for those Christians farther removed in time and geography in the wider Greco-Roman world.

Yes. How does that suggest that it is Apostolic and true?

By reading Luke 1:34, in which Mary asks the angel, "How shall this be, since I do not know a man?" [NAB], we can infer with certainty that she had made a vow of chastity to God.

1. How is it possible to "infer with certainty?" Isn't that a contradiction?

2. She says "I do not know a man." It's PRESENT tense. For the DOGMA of "Mary Had No Sex Ever" to be substantiated, it would have to be future perfect. It's not. If I state, "I'm a virgin" that has ZERO relevance to whether I will die a virgin. If I state, "I live in an apartment," that does not mean that I will continuously live in an apartment up to and including the moment of my death. PRESENT tense has nothing whatsoever to do with PERPETUALITY. Nothing.

A woman who was already married by betrothal and intended to have marital relations would not ask by what manner she would conceive a child once she was morally permitted to by Mosaic Law.

Pure, entirely unfounded speculation. You certainly may spectuate all you want, but such is not substantiation of dogma.

I think the Catholic Tradition here is FAR more likely - although again, speculation. That Tradition is that the Incarnation and the Annunciation happened AT THE SAME TIME, which is why the Annunication is celebrated exactly 9 months before Christmas. Long before this idea of Mary Had No Sex Ever, we had this Tradition - that Jesus was conceived at the moment of the annuniation that you reference. Hence, could it be that Mary was right? That Mary understood this? Thus, She asks Her question in the PRESENT tense - knowing the prophecy is a PRESENT reality? IF She was wrong, and the prophecy was that She'd conceive 25 years in the future, would she not have asked Her question in the future tense? IF the ancient Tradition you celebrate every year by celebrating the Annunciation on March 25th, then Mary's question AND THE VERB SHE USED makes perfect sense: She understood the prophecy to be fulfilled IN HER HEARING - not 20, 30, 40 or 50 years in the future. Thus, Her FUTURE status had nothing to do with anything, it was Her PRESENT situation that is the all of this. "How can this be since I AM (present active) a virgin?"

The Fathers of the Church kept this tradition by affirming Mary's perpetual virginity in their writings.

Please quote from anyone who knew Mary or ANYONE who knew Her that states that Mary Had No Sex EVER. Just one.

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is dogma proclaimed by Pope Martin l at the Lateran Synod in A.D. 649, but it wasn't strictly defined as were the other Marian dogmas by the extraordinary and universal Magisterium.

Nearly 600 years after Her death (or was it undeath)....

How did Pope Martin 1 know that Mary Had No Sex EVER?
Do you know why he cared SO very, very much about that tidbit of Her marital relations?





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[Dorothea]

Thanks for the reply...



Now, show me that Mary DID do that as well as show cultural and biblical support of women making vows of Chastity to God all the while anticipating and actually becoming engaged to be married.

Why would she get engaged? What Jewish girl would ever not consummate her marriage.. it goes against what the word of God says, Go forth and multiply... cleave to your spouse and become one. That is biblical... what is not biblical is to make a vow of chastity and get married...

Thanks. Have a good day.

She got engaged so she wouldn't be stoned to death.

 

[katherine2001]

Washedagain, she was pregnant with Christ, correct? That is why Joseph was told by the Archangel Gabriel that the baby that Mary was carrying was the Messiah and that He was to be named Jesus. That is why Joseph did not end the betrothal. She would have been stoned to death for being pregnant outside of marriage.

Also, Joseph would not have thought of having sex with Mary after she conceived, carried, and gave birth to the Messiah. Holy things were set apart and not used for other things. You don't get more holy than having conceived, carried, and giving birth to the Son of God incarnate in the flesh. Being a pious Jew and having a strong sense of the holy, Joseph wouldn't have thought of having sex with her afterwards. If you notice, Christ made John responsible for caring for Mary after His death. If Mary had other children, Christ wouldn't have had to do this. Her other children would have had a legal responsibility to care for her. However, His "brothers and sisters" were the children of Joseph, who was a widower. They were his children, not Mary's. Therefore, Mary had nobody to be responsible for her, and Christ had to name one of His apostles to be responsible for her.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Joseph would not have thought of having sex with Mary after she conceived, carried, and gave birth to the Messiah.

What conversations have you had with Joseph that indicated such to you?


Odd, because as a man, I think the EXACT OPPOSITE would be true.... how much MORE would I love her, honor her and want to give to her. I'd feel differently if she had rejected God's will, but not because she embraced it. Odd. Very odd.


But in any case, how do you KNOW - to the point of highest certainty of truth - dogma - that Joseph felt this (very odd) way you think he did? Where's your evidence? Or is this pure, baseless, entirely unsubstantiated (and odd) speculation on your part?






.

 

[Incariol]

What conversations have you had with Joseph that indicated such to you?


Odd, because as a man, I think the EXACT OPPOSITE would be true.... how much MORE would I love her, honor her and want to give to her. I'd feel differently if she had rejected God's will, but not because she embraced it. Odd. Very odd.

"6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God."



Gee, I can't imagine.