Let's talk about taxes.....

[smurfy2day]

Originally posted by two feathers
i believe we should be able to decide and vote on exactly where all our tax money should go. it's quite evident that the government is immensely irresponsible when it comes to spending and i know my hard earned money is going to things i do not wish to support. but i can't do anything about it. they take and do as they wish.

 

As someone who personally believes in "Conspiracy Theories" I believe that if we REALLY knew what a majoirty of the money was going for, we would have messes in our pants! Seriously..... we have no idea of what's really going on, and THAT my friend is what we SHOULD be able to know about!

 

And you're right, since we elect everything else, we should be able to "elect" where our tax dollars go to......

 

[MyJhongFist]

Originally posted by strathyboy
How do you define "ownership"? You "own" what you think you own because your ancestors militarily evicted the last owners. You continue to "own" what you think you own because the government that evicted the last owners says you still own it. Or is there a higher principle that gives you a mystical right to inhabit the land you currently inhabit?

Before you get all philosphical on everyone, I consider the fact that I own my house to stem from the fact that I paid for it.  I bought the land, I paid to have a home built there.  It belongs to me.

Are you going to ask whether or not I mystically own my car, even though I paid cash for it from the person who was selling it?

Someone was selling, I paid, It's mine.

 

[strathyboy]

Originally posted by MyJhongFist
Before you get all philosphical on everyone, I consider the fact that I own my house to stem from the fact that I paid for it.  I bought the land, I paid to have a home built there.  It belongs to me.

You're sort of missing my point. What would happen if someone militarily conquered your nation and took your land by force? Would it still be your land, or would it now belong to the person who took it?

 

[Dewjunkie]

Just to play opposing advocate...what if we didn't pay taxes? Where would the money for public assistance programs come from? Where would money for school improvement come from? Where would the money to pay the men and women who volunteer to lay down their lives to defend the freedom to complain about taxes come from? If we didn't pay taxes, then poor people would have little or no access to healthcare, older people who didn't have access to great 401K programs in their careers would have no money for retirement, and disabled people unable to work would just have to starve to death. If we didn't pay taxes the military would be even more poorly funded and we'd have a few 22' Bayliners with refurbished cannons protecting our coasts and a couple of Piper Cubs with PA systems defending our skies.

Yes, I am going a little extreme for effect. But, before you complain about paying taxes, think about where America would be without them. Better yet, take a trip to a country with no organized taxation system and then come back and complain about how badly we have it here.

And, has anyone who gets a refund during tax time ever subtracted the refund from the amount of taxes paid to see how much of the money actually went to the government?

I guess a lot of Americans want a government "By the people, for the people" as long as it's not asking for money "from the people".

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
Just to play opposing advocate...what if we didn't pay taxes? Where would the money for public assistance programs come from? Where would money for school improvement come from? Where would the money to pay the men and women who volunteer to lay down their lives to defend the freedom to complain about taxes come from? If we didn't pay taxes, then poor people would have little or no access to healthcare, older people who didn't have access to great 401K programs in their careers would have no money for retirement, and disabled people unable to work would just have to starve to death. If we didn't pay taxes the military would be even more poorly funded and we'd have a few 22' Bayliners with refurbished cannons protecting our coasts and a couple of Piper Cubs with PA systems defending our skies.

Yes, I am going a little extreme for effect. But, before you complain about paying taxes, think about where America would be without them. Better yet, take a trip to a country with no organized taxation system and then come back and complain about how badly we have it here.

And, has anyone who gets a refund during tax time ever subtracted the refund from the amount of taxes paid to see how much of the money actually went to the government?

I guess a lot of Americans want a government "By the people, for the people" as long as it's not asking for money "from the people".

This is not a situation unique to the US. In Australia, everyone complains simultaneously about the taxes they pay, how bad the roads are, how bad the health system is and how bad the education system.

There seems to be no connection in people's minds between the money they pay in tax and the services they and others get in exchange - services which include a democracitc government.

People think the money goes to Peter Costello (the Treasurer) and then they seem unclear as to what happens next - I guess they think it vanishes.

To me, voting on what the money gets spent on would be ridiculous. People are short sighted - no-one would vote for a school to be budgeted in today unless they had a child that needed to go to school; no-one would vote for money to be spent on cancer research until they got cancer.

Taxes pay for things, people. Sure, sometimes the government is inefficient or corrupt (and the private sector isn't? Enron, anyone?) and sometimes they spend money on things that you personally would not want them to spend money on. But they are spending money on things that you do want, but which others might object to.

Think about taxation sensibly. Think about the services you (you the community not you the individual) gets from taxes. Think about how they would not exist unless you paid taxes. Then think about why perhaps the roads do not get repaired as often as you would like them to be and things like that. Do you really want to pay less tax? 

 

[MyJhongFist]

Originally posted by strathyboy
You're sort of missing my point. What would happen if someone militarily conquered your nation and took your land by force? Would it still be your land, or would it now belong to the person who took it?

It would belong to the people who took it, because they were powerful enough to kick my rear-end and take it. 

However (right now), the 'Law of the Hoard' is not in effect so I don't have to fight to keep my land.  Free trade and the exchange of currency is the law of the land for the time being.  Therefore, if I pay for something it's mine.

When/if we revert to barbarism, I will be more than happy to fight to keep what I have.  Until then, I am going by the commonly accepted definition of ownership.

What's wrong with the politically correct crowd, anyway?  Do they have to read the events of hundreds of years ago into every discussion?  Militants scare me.

 

[MyJhongFist]

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
Just to play opposing advocate...what if we didn't pay taxes? Where would the money for public assistance programs come from? Where would money for school improvement come from? Where would the money to pay the men and women who volunteer to lay down their lives to defend the freedom to complain about taxes come from?


I guess a lot of Americans want a government "By the people, for the people" as long as it's not asking for money "from the people".

That's complete bunk.  Why such an extreme point of view? 

You take the fact that we complain about taxes being so high, to mean that we don't think that we should pay taxes at all.  Well, who are you to put that meaning behind my statements?

I know taxes are necessary for preserving the public good.

The complaint is that taxes are too high, mis-spent, and generally spent on things that are totally unnecessary.  Then, what happens when the government wants to fund a new program?  The very first thing that they suggest is raising taxes, just a little more.  Hey, we won't notice right?

To heck with trimming some of the money from the 'pork' programs and mis-spending, right?  Let's just give them ALL of our money.

 

[David Gould]

But will paying less taxes automatically reduce the 'pork' programs? Surely money will come off all programs, including the good ones.

If you want to reform the way the government spends money, fair enough. But paying less tax without such reform = less services, pure and simple.

 

[MyJhongFist]

Originally posted by David Gould
But will paying less taxes automatically reduce the 'pork' programs? Surely money will come off all programs, including the good ones.

If you want to reform the way the government spends money, fair enough. But paying less tax without such reform = less services, pure and simple.

Correct.  What I, and others are calling for is a reform in government spending, responsibility and taxes.  They all go together, regardless of whether or not anyone else admits it.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by MyJhongFist
Correct.  What I, and others are calling for is a reform in government spending, responsibility and taxes.  They all go together, regardless of whether or not anyone else admits it.

I think that such a reform could just as likely lead to people deciding to increase taxes. I do not prejudge the outcome. For example, people may end up wanting better health and better education systems and cutting the pork programs might not provide enough.

I think that deciding where and what to spend must come before deciding how much to tax.

 

[MyJhongFist]

So then, let's see how much the pork program cuts glean before making the decision to burden the American people any more than usual.

I think you'd be amazed at how much money all the 'pork' programs would gather.

 

[aaron]

Here is my opinion on taxes. Taxes are needed. We pay too much. The government wastes most of it. They wouldn't always be in a debt if they they actually used the money where it is needed. I see them waste money all of the time on roads that don't need it; they are perfect roads. If they just would leave the road alone the money could go towards something else like school.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by MyJhongFist
So then, let's see how much the pork program cuts glean before making the decision to burden the American people any more than usual.

I think you'd be amazed at how much money all the 'pork' programs would gather.

Of course, there would be many people who would dispute the definition of 'pork' program.

I agree - let us see what programs we want funded before we take a tax cut.

Unfortunately, no-one will do that - everyone will just vote for a tax cut, because they see a cash benefit to them personally when it may not actually end up being a benefit at all.

 

[strathyboy]

Originally posted by MyJhongFist
It would belong to the people who took it, because they were powerful enough to kick my rear-end and take it. 

However (right now), the 'Law of the Hoard' is not in effect so I don't have to fight to keep my land.  Free trade and the exchange of currency is the law of the land for the time being.  Therefore, if I pay for something it's mine.

When/if we revert to barbarism, I will be more than happy to fight to keep what I have.  Until then, I am going by the commonly accepted definition of ownership.

What's wrong with the politically correct crowd, anyway?  Do they have to read the events of hundreds of years ago into every discussion?  Militants scare me.

Politically correct and militant? Well, okay, maybe I am militant from time to time. How exactly is it "politically correct" to consider past events? What exactly is the cut-off date by which events are no longer "past events"?

I was simply questioning the rather mystical idea of land ownership many people seem to have. I appreciate that you have a more realistic idea, but again, you own your land because the government says you own it. Society has a set of rules defining ownership and under those rules, you own land.
When you say "the law of the hoard", what exactly are you referring to? In many western nations, society is similar enough that the definition of land ownership is the same. But in many nations on earth, whether or not you own something is completely dependent on whether or not you agree with the government in power, whether or not you can bribe officials, etc. Who "owns" land seems dependent on which societal system is currently in power.

 

[Dewjunkie]

Originally posted by MyJhongFist
You take the fact that we complain about taxes being so high, to mean that we don't think that we should pay taxes at all.  Well, who are you to put that meaning behind my statements?

I re-read my post and didn't find a direct referrence to you at any point.  I did however find myself saying in the opening "to play opposing advocate" which meant I was simply throwing in some points that no one else had brought up.  A lot of people complain about taxes without really knowing what they are complaining about.   

The complaint is that taxes are too high, mis-spent, and generally spent on things that are totally unnecessary.

 

Maybe to YOU.  But someone somewhere sees them as valid or else they wouldn't get approval.  I'm sure you could find a lot of things on the last DI-1 that my division submitted that you would consider excess, but for our daily operations, they are necessities.  Who's to say who's needs are more important than someone else's?

Then, what happens when the government wants to fund a new program?  The very first thing that they suggest is raising taxes, just a little more.  Hey, we won't notice right?

Where would you suggest the money come from?  If society wants the government to provide all of these programs for their benefit, then why is the government wrong for expecting the people to help out?   

To heck with trimming some of the money from the 'pork' programs and mis-spending, right?  Let's just give them ALL of our money.

What pork programs?  NASA?  Scientists, astronomers, and a lot of military leaders would say it's a necessity.  Bureau of Land Management?  Conservationists and archaeologists would say it's a necessity.  Defense spending?  People were crying for more defense just a little over a year ago.  And tell the E-3 with a wife and kid that's living on food stamps in San Diego that the military gets too much money.  Social Security?  Won't be around when we retire anyway, right?  I felt that way about it too until my wfe was paralyzed in June.  You never know what program you're going to end up supporting.      

I am not saying to just "give all our money" to the government blindly.  I'm just saying that taxes are in place for a reason.  Just because you personally may not agree with all of the reasons, someone somewhere probably doesn't agree with your reasons.  I work for the federal government, so in reality I pay my own salary. But I really don't care about the taxes, because I never see the money anyway, and I live perfect comfortably on the money I bring home.  And if surrendering some of my pay helps out someone less fortunate through a government program, great.     

We are nowhere near the highest taxed nation in the world.  We live in mass excess, yet complain that we don't have more.  Ask a bus driver in Cuba if he'd like to trade salaries and tax brackets with you.

 

Wow.  This has to be my longest post ever.  And on a subject I don't really feel all that strongly about.....          

 

[smurfy2day]

Originally posted by aaron
Here is my opinion on taxes. Taxes are needed. We pay too much. The government wastes most of it. They wouldn't always be in a debt if they they actually used the money where it is needed. I see them waste money all of the time on roads that don't need it; they are perfect roads. If they just would leave the road alone the money could go towards something else like school.

 

The ONLY way I want more money to go into the school system is if they are willing to give vouchers to those who do not wish to send their children to a disgusting institution like public schools!

 



But you're right on the roads... holy wow! Do they ever.... the funny thing is, is that the roads they NEED to work on, are about 10 years overdue!

 

[Daniella]

Originally posted by Force
I would just like to say that I think it is very cool that I dont pay State Tax living in Nevada. 

Yes taxes suck my behind! But just think taxes COULD be worse and more like in Britain and you would have to "pay them to the Queen".  I heard they get taxed a whole lot more.

 

HEY.. do you mind? lol

the taxes here are not that bad.. the only thing that stinks is i get taxed or will get taxed twice.. one for US tax and one for UK tax now that stinks.. and the one thing good here is .. when you go into a shop and something says its 99 cents.. you paid just 99 cents.. so  lol

 

[Daniella]

great i forgot what else i was going to say.. ugh!

 

[Morat]

The ONLY way I want more money to go into the school system is if they are willing to give vouchers to those who do not wish to send their children to a disgusting institution like public schools!

One wonders where you live. Public schools can be quite good. I attended one, as does my child.

I graduated with about two semesters of college credit, based on the excellence of my teachers and curriculm. And was educated in Texas, not known for the quality of it's schools.