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JesusLovesOurLady

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I posted this merely to converse with my Catholic brothers and sisters. But I'm more then happy to enlighten the Protestant and others, on how they can please the Lord greatly, by loving the which loves the most, apart from Himself.
 
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Saint Beloved

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Exactly, union.
Hence to separate the one from the other as part of a semantic gymnastic in order to avoid making use of the term theotokos is redundant.

Ok I'm starting to understand a bit more pfft big words phase me I don't excell at thinking for myself haha.

So God the Father favoured Mary the human to bear Jesus the Son of God who is fully human and fully divine.
God took on human flesh to bear our temptation and understand us so that He can later judge us justly and used His humanity's free will to die for our sins and His divinity gave him the strength to stay perfect and not be tainted by original sin because Jesus was the seed of God not Adam? So Mary did give birth to God and can be called the mother of God but that doesn't make her a goddess just very respected?

AND BREATHE IN AND OUT.
 
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Saint Beloved

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You should never flee from reason! The purpose of reason is to submit to Truth, and God is Truth Himself!
Truth is that which is, and God is HE WHO IS. If you do not use your reason, there is a serious danger your reason will be subjugated to the the very flesh you are trying to resist!

I unfortunately have a life long fear of trusting myself and humans in general on their own authority and opinion I'm quite literal I read the Bible and accept it in a very black/white dogmatic I guess you could say child like way.
 
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For those seeking Our Lady this may help.

This may help in general A few years ago someone asked a question about Mary in relation to some verses. I gave this answer and kept it because I get the Mary question a good deal offline and on. And this also might touch on your desire to really get a feeling for the devotion to Our Lady.


Question:
Ok so two different sections of Scripture:

Luke 11:27-28

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out. She shouted, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."
He replied, "Instead, blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it."

Luke 7:28

I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John, but the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

My answer:

I think you ask a great question. One we must reflect on to see the proper role of Mary as the Catholic Church teaches it. These verses are vital to understanding that and they reinforce our teaching. They are a caution against excess and an instruction to how and why Mary is important. A real Marian lesson that fits totally in line with Paul VI: Apostolic Exhortation for the Right Ordering and Development of Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary


In this Pope Paul VI said:
When the children of the Church unite their voices with the voice of the unknown woman in the Gospel and glorify the Mother of Jesus by saying to Him: "Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that you sucked" (Lk. 11:27), they will be led to ponder the Divine Master's serious reply: "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Lk. 11:28) While it is true that this reply is in itself lively praise of Mary, as various Fathers of the Church interpreted it and the Second Vatican Council has confirmed, it is also an admonition to us to live our lives in accordance with God's commandments. It is also an echo of other words of the Savior: "Not every one who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Mt. 7:21); and again: "You are my friends if you do what I command you" (Jn. 15:14).

In both of these Our blessed Lord is saying the same thing. He says, do not think that the claim of closeness to me, the claim of salvation, the claim of greatness is given by anything other than love and obedience to God. By acceptance of the Divine will.

When we see that we also see that Mary exceeds all others. First, is there something special about her as our Lord's mother? Absolutely. Because she accepted the will of God and with it that motherhood. Her motherhood was not accidental. It was not by her motherhood that she followed the will of the Lord...but by her total donation of self to the will of God that she was chosen from all people of all times to be the Mother of our Lord.

So Christ is showing that in the love and obedience to Him and The Father...that is where great gifts are given. And one of the greatest is the gift of motherhood to Mary.

The second verse mirrors the first. If Mary gave her will to God and stayed by Christ to the end and beyond...would not her place in the kingdom be great. The verses give the resounding cry...look not to the things of this world. Look to Me. Look to the Light of the world.

And Mary is an example of how to do this.

The verses can not be taken in the total literal way or else Christ is saying that John is even greater than our Lord...because Christ was born of woman. The Lord is using strong poetic language to get a point across. The meaning of His words are clear. It is not their (Mary and John) relationship to Me in the worlds eyes that brings greatness...but their lives...their love of Me. And He calls us to love Him in that same way.

This brings about a necessary mention of Mary's role in Catholic life. It is to bring us closer to Christ.

I have always thought of the Rosary as Mary taking us by the hand and saying: "Come with me, let me show you the life of my Son. See Him and love Him as I do."

When I was young I saw my relationship with Mary in this light. We often see a mother with a baby and we are young. The baby is offered to us to hold, to know....to love. But we are young...like children and afraid. We do not know how to hold the child. The mother often, as Mary does, says: "Here, let me show you how to hold Him."

As I grew up and life gets complex. I have a personal relationship with Christ. And as the world throws us it's curve balls and trials...we falter. Sometimes, even with a wonderful personal relationship with Our blessed Lord...we lose our way. He seems so great and we so small. And in trial and darkness...we need help. He comes to help us...but so does Mary. Because she wants us to love Him so deeply.

When there is trial I think of the young girl of Nazareth. How an angel came and gave her such news. How she gave her total will to the plan of the Lord. And the Joy at the Birth of Christ. The joy of watching Him grow in wisdom as He aged. And then I think of the mother at the foot of the cross. The woman given news by an angel is watching her Son die. If anyone in all of human history could have cursed God and said: "I was lied to...is this Your promise?" It was her at that moment and the moment later when she held Her Son who gave His life for the world. The first to hold Him to her heart in this world and also the last. A mother and child. One saved and the savior. And at that moment she did not abandon Him as her child or her Savior. Can I, in my life...do any less with that example? With that guidance?

How to hold the Lord at Christmas is easy.
The wonderful Child foretold.

How to hold Him at Easter is easy.
Savior and Victor over death.

But to hold Him on Good Friday is hard.
The seemingly dead promise, but in reality the victory of God Himself over Sin and Death. But the eyes to see that in our own daily suffering are dim. Does Easter ever seem as distant as on Good Friday. Surely it is closer in the Joy of Christmas. It would have been so easy for Mary to have left the cross as a broken promise.


But she did not. We know she stayed strong and stayed with the Apostles, just as she stood with Him to the foot of the Cross. From His birth, though His ministry, To the Cross, to Pentecost and beyond. And that is the example we follow...devotion to our Blessed Lord until the end and beyond.

That is how I view the verses as well as how they reinforce the proper Catholic relationship with Mary and why she is so important to us. Yes, we have the Lord. And He helps us know Him better. But we also have Mary and the Saints to show us how to grow and build that relationship with Him. Because our blessed Lord knows...we often need more help than seems necessary because we are human and capable of such love...but also such a fall. So He shares with us His own mother and her example. And she, filled with love for us, always seeks to help us in accordance with the will of God. The verses are not a condemnation of her but an exultation of how she lives with Him in her heart. A life that Scripture shows to the foot of the Cross and beyond.
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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MOD HAT

Remember this is part of the Catholic subforum. Questions are fine, but teaching against Catholic teachings is not.

MOD HAT
I posted this merely to converse with my Catholic brothers and sisters. But I'm more then happy to enlighten the Protestant and others, on how they can please the Lord greatly, by loving the which loves the most, apart from Himself.
Never mind...
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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I unfortunately have a life long fear of trusting myself and humans in general on their own authority and opinion I'm quite literal I read the Bible and accept it in a very black/white dogmatic I guess you could say child like way.
To be fair, I have known people, who really intelligent, and they were doing things, well, let's just say they're the main reason I put a warning on the link to my reversion story. But they were doing things that should normally devastate one's intellect, so it freaked me out that they were as smart as they were. But still, God gave you that intellect for the purpose of knowing and loving Him.
 
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Saint Beloved

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For those seeking Our Lady this may help.

This may help in general A few years ago someone asked a question about Mary in relation to some verses. I gave this answer and kept it because I get the Mary question a good deal offline and on. And this also might touch on your desire to really get a feeling for the devotion to Our Lady.


Question:
Ok so two different sections of Scripture:

Luke 11:27-28

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out. She shouted, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."
He replied, "Instead, blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it."


Luke 7:28

I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John, but the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

My answer:

I think you ask a great question. One we must reflect on to see the proper role of Mary as the Catholic Church teaches it. These verses are vital to understanding that and they reinforce our teaching. They are a caution against excess and an instruction to how and why Mary is important. A real Marian lesson that fits totally in line with Paul VI: Apostolic Exhortation for the Right Ordering and Development of Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary


In this Pope Paul VI said:
When the children of the Church unite their voices with the voice of the unknown woman in the Gospel and glorify the Mother of Jesus by saying to Him: "Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that you sucked" (Lk. 11:27), they will be led to ponder the Divine Master's serious reply: "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Lk. 11:28) While it is true that this reply is in itself lively praise of Mary, as various Fathers of the Church interpreted it and the Second Vatican Council has confirmed, it is also an admonition to us to live our lives in accordance with God's commandments. It is also an echo of other words of the Savior: "Not every one who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Mt. 7:21); and again: "You are my friends if you do what I command you" (Jn. 15:14).

In both of these Our blessed Lord is saying the same thing. He says, do not think that the claim of closeness to me, the claim of salvation, the claim of greatness is given by anything other than love and obedience to God. By acceptance of the Divine will.

When we see that we also see that Mary exceeds all others. First, is there something special about her as our Lord's mother? Absolutely. Because she accepted the will of God and with it that motherhood. Her motherhood was not accidental. It was not by her motherhood that she followed the will of the Lord...but by her total donation of self to the will of God that she was chosen from all people of all times to be the Mother of our Lord.

So Christ is showing that in the love and obedience to Him and The Father...that is where great gifts are given. And one of the greatest is the gift of motherhood to Mary.

The second verse mirrors the first. If Mary gave her will to God and stayed by Christ to the end and beyond...would not her place in the kingdom be great. The verses give the resounding cry...look not to the things of this world. Look to Me. Look to the Light of the world.

And Mary is an example of how to do this.

The verses can not be taken in the total literal way or else Christ is saying that John is even greater than our Lord...because Christ was born of woman. The Lord is using strong poetic language to get a point across. The meaning of His words are clear. It is not their (Mary and John) relationship to Me in the worlds eyes that brings greatness...but their lives...their love of Me. And He calls us to love Him in that same way.

This brings about a necessary mention of Mary's role in Catholic life. It is to bring us closer to Christ.

I have always thought of the Rosary as Mary taking us by the hand and saying: "Come with me, let me show you the life of my Son. See Him and love Him as I do."

When I was young I saw my relationship with Mary in this light. We often see a mother with a baby and we are young. The baby is offered to us to hold, to know....to love. But we are young...like children and afraid. We do not know how to hold the child. The mother often, as Mary does, says: "Here, let me show you how to hold Him."

As I grew up and life gets complex. I have a personal relationship with Christ. And as the world throws us it's curve balls and trials...we falter. Sometimes, even with a wonderful personal relationship with Our blessed Lord...we lose our way. He seems so great and we so small. And in trial and darkness...we need help. He comes to help us...but so does Mary. Because she wants us to love Him so deeply.

When there is trial I think of the young girl of Nazareth. How an angel came and gave her such news. How she gave her total will to the plan of the Lord. And the Joy at the Birth of Christ. The joy of watching Him grow in wisdom as He aged. And then I think of the mother at the foot of the cross. The woman given news by an angel is watching her Son die. If anyone in all of human history could have cursed God and said: "I was lied to...is this Your promise?" It was her at that moment and the moment later when she held Her Son who gave His life for the world. The first to hold Him to her heart in this world and also the last. A mother and child. One saved and the savior. And at that moment she did not abandon Him as her child or her Savior. Can I, in my life...do any less with that example? With that guidance?

How to hold the Lord at Christmas is easy.
The wonderful Child foretold.

How to hold Him at Easter is easy.
Savior and Victor over death.

But to hold Him on Good Friday is hard.
The seemingly dead promise, but in reality the victory of God Himself over Sin and Death. But the eyes to see that in our own daily suffering are dim. Does Easter ever seem as distant as on Good Friday. Surely it is closer in the Joy of Christmas. It would have been so easy for Mary to have left the cross as a broken promise.


But she did not. We know she stayed strong and stayed with the Apostles, just as she stood with Him to the foot of the Cross. From His birth, though His ministry, To the Cross, to Pentecost and beyond. And that is the example we follow...devotion to our Blessed Lord until the end and beyond.

That is how I view the verses as well as how they reinforce the proper Catholic relationship with Mary and why she is so important to us. Yes, we have the Lord. And He helps us know Him better. But we also have Mary and the Saints to show us how to grow and build that relationship with Him. Because our blessed Lord knows...we often need more help than seems necessary because we are human and capable of such love...but also such a fall. So He shares with us His own mother and her example. And she, filled with love for us, always seeks to help us in accordance with the will of God. The verses are not a condemnation of her but an exultation of how she lives with Him in her heart. A life that Scripture shows to the foot of the Cross and beyond.

Thanks for that wow it's quite a bit to take in I'll have to read it a number of times. I'm still worried about the idea of praying to Mary though I don't read that in the Bible or it hasn't been made obvious to me by being implied in there. Respect is one thing but praying to a name other than Father, Son or Holy Spirit ... i fear intelligence and ideas expounded on after the Bible ends and centuries after how do I know and discsrn what is truth after the last word of Revelation.

I can pray to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit because they are God and even though the Son took on flesh and died He still remained God but Mary was always ever human and died and was buried like every human so like every human who has died and will die her body is in the grave and won't wake up till the resurrection her spirit is alive but there's a chasm between her and us we can't communicate with each other like those who died in the flood can't communicate with us. So if I try to talk to her like if I tried to talk to my dead grandma wouldn't that be wrong and against God?
 
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dzheremi

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It was the heretic Nestorius who said that he could not worship a God who was once a baby. In response to this kind of thinking, which I see is sadly still alive in this thread (Lord have mercy), the Church emphasized that the St. Mary was not just the mother of a human being named Jesus, but the Son of God who is of the same divinity (not any less, more, or different) as the Father and the Holy Spirit, as had already been confirmed in the earlier councils at Nicaea in 325 and at Constantinople in 381.

Well before even all of these milestones, we can look to the earliest extant hymn to St. Mary as Theotokos, Beneath Thy Protection (Sub tuum praesidium), which is dated to c. 250 AD. Its earliest surviving text is found in the Coptic Orthodox Christmas liturgy, on a fragment of Greek papyri acquired in 1917 by the John Rylands library, as you can read at the link. It is still sung in Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Catholic churches to this day.

St. Mary the ever-virgin is Theotokos, who truly gave birth to God the Logos, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is this theology that we express by accepting this title for St. Mary, as others have rightly pointed out in this thread. Theotokos/Mother of God is a Christological truth, not Mariolatry or any kind of position adopted for its own sake, as though the parties at Ephesus were divided over whether or not St. Mary played the role that we all very clearly agree that she played as the mother of Jesus (i.e., the literal birthing and rearing of Him). Heck, anyone outside of Christianity can agree that she gave birth to a man named Jesus, but that this same Jesus is the incarnate God is the defining belief of Christianity in particular. So it is of the utmost importance that we affirm that St. Mary is the Mother of God (Theotokos; lit. "God-bearer"). As the quote from St. Gregory Nazianzus (also from well before Ephesus) at the above link rightly states, to not confess that St. Mary is Theotokos is to separate divinity from Christ, which is absolutely not acceptable under any circumstances in Christianity.
 
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tadoflamb

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So what are your thoughts on our Blessed Mother? How's your relationship with her? Has she helped you with anything recently or in the distant past?

I have a special devotion to Our Lady because she's the one who introduced me to her glorious Son.

As an outsider looking in, the icon of Christ is terribly obscured. There are so many voices proclaiming so many different Jesus's, it's hard to figure out which is which.

Fortunately, due to their neglect, the icon of Mary remained relatively intact.

My journey into the Christian faith began in earnest on a December night when I was participating in an art fair downtown. There was a woman there selling Marian icons. They each had a prayer on the back. I stood there looking at the icons and reading the prayers weeping, they were so beautiful.

I bought one for my wife since she was raised Catholic and 'could understand this sort of thing'.

Through a series of seeming coincidences, the artist who made the icons and I became friends.

One night, she asked me to pray a rosary for her. So, I prayed my first rosary.

Shortly after that, I surrendered my heart to Jesus.

You see? Every good mother will divert attention from herself to her child.

This was also about the time my MIL passed away. It was at her wake that I prayed my first public rosary. Her funeral was also one of the first times I had been to mass. It was then that I realized that there was something going on with this Catholic Church . Does anyone think it's just a coincidence hat my MIL's name is Lourdes?

This is why I believe and this is why I will never hesitate to turn to Our Lady.

Thanks for asking!
 
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stuart lawrence

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I unfortunately have a life long fear of trusting myself and humans in general on their own authority and opinion I'm quite literal I read the Bible and accept it in a very black/white dogmatic I guess you could say child like way.
Well done
 
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tadoflamb

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Mary was always ever human and died and was buried like every human so like every human who has died and will die her body is in the grave and won't wake up till the resurrection her spirit is alive but there's a chasm between her and us we can't communicate with each other like those who died in the flood can't communicate with us.

The Blessed Virgin Mother is not in a grave. Her body was assumed into Heaven.

Arise, LORD, come to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. (Psalms 132:8)

I believe the Blessed Mother can know what's on our hearts.

and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” (Luke 2:35)

And to quote an excerpt from one of of my favorite verses and the biblical version of my conversion story, yet more biblical evidence that those in Heaven are aware of those of us one earth

I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance. (Luke 15:8)

So do as my Lord said to do when from the Cross He compels me to

Behold your mother. (John 19:27)
 
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Saint Beloved

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The Blessed Virgin Mother is not in a grave. Her body was assumed into Heaven.

Arise, LORD, come to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. (Psalms 132:8)

I believe the Blessed Mother can know what's on our hearts.

and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” (Luke 2:35)

And to quote an excerpt from one of of my favorite verses and the biblical version of my conversion story, yet more biblical evidence that those in Heaven are aware of those of us one earth

I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance. (Luke 15:8)


So do as my Lord said to do when from the Cross He compels me to

Behold your mother. (John 19:27)

But no one is in Heaven except Father, Son and Spirit and angels?
Mary is like Enoch?
How can we talk plainly of what we don't know?
 
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tadoflamb

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But no one is in Heaven except Father, Son and Spirit and[9: angels?

According to the Sacred Scriptures, Moses and Elijah are up there too (Mt 17:3) and there's the great cloud of witnesses of Hebrews 12:1.

And then who are these people?

After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. (Rev 7:9)

That's the Church Triumphant. and, as an aside, the Catholic Church fulfills that prophecy all by it's self. :cool:

Mary is like Enoch?
How can we talk plainly of what we don't know?

When the Sacred Scriptures aren't plainly clear (and in this case I think they are) we cam always turn to Sacred Tradition to verify as they both spring from the same source.

To illustrate, if the Blessed Mother is in a grave, where is that grave?

Furthermore, it's well know where the relics of the twelve apostles lie. Not so for the Blessed Mother. Why is that?

To put it most crassly, if you advertised that you had the relics of the Blessed Virgin Mary, no one would believe you. How come?

This is Sacred Tradition. Our faith is real and it's historic. When Jesus Christ established this Church, He wasn't fooling around.
 
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stuart lawrence

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According to the Sacred Scriptures, Moses and Elijah are up there too (Mt 17:3) and there's the great cloud of witnesses of Hebrews 12:1.

And then who are these people?

After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. (Rev 7:9)

That's the Church Triumphant. and, as an aside, the Catholic Church fulfills that prophecy all by it's self. :cool:



When the Sacred Scriptures aren't plainly clear (and in this case I think they are) we cam always turn to Sacred Tradition to verify as they both spring from the same source.

To illustrate, if the Blessed Mother is in a grave, where is that grave?

Furthermore, it's well know where the relics of the twelve apostles lie. Not so for the Blessed Mother. Why is that?

To put it most crassly, if you advertised that you had the relics of the Blessed Virgin Mary, no one would believe you. How come?

This is Sacred Tradition. Our faith is real and it's historic. When Jesus Christ established this Church, He wasn't fooling around.
Moses and Elijah died and went to THE Heaven to dwell with God?

NO ONE has ever entered Heaven except the one who came from heaven, the son of man
John3:13
 
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stuart lawrence

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But no one is in Heaven except Father, Son and Spirit and angels?
Mary is like Enoch?
How can we talk plainly of what we don't know?
You are a young Christian?
Yet you know the resurrection of the dead has not yet taken place! In my view, you are very much blessed of God. And the Holy Spirit is leading you into truth. When you have trials in your life, never doubt God is with you. The truth you know, and accept proves he is
 
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I have a special devotion to Our Lady because she's the one who introduced me to her glorious Son.

As an outsider looking in, the icon of Christ is terribly obscured. There are so many voices proclaiming so many different Jesus's, it's hard to figure out which is which.

Fortunately, due to their neglect, the icon of Mary remained relatively intact.

My journey into the Christian faith began in earnest on a December night when I was participating in an art fair downtown. There was a woman there selling Marian icons. They each had a prayer on the back. I stood there looking at the icons and reading the prayers weeping, they were so beautiful.

I bought one for my wife since she was raised Catholic and 'could understand this sort of thing'.

Through a series of seeming coincidences, the artist who made the icons and I became friends.

One night, she asked me to pray a rosary for her. So, I prayed my first rosary.

Shortly after that, I surrendered my heart to Jesus.

You see? Every good mother will divert attention from herself to her child.

This was also about the time my MIL passed away. It was at her wake that I prayed my first public rosary. Her funeral was also one of the first times I had been to mass. It was then that I realized that there was something going on with this Catholic Church . Does anyone think it's just a coincidence hat my MIL's name is Lourdes?

This is why I believe and this is why I will never hesitate to turn to Our Lady.

Thanks for asking!

This scares me because I gravitate towards pictures and things I can hold and see but when is admiring stepping into idolatry territory?
 
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Saint Beloved

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According to the Sacred Scriptures, Moses and Elijah are up there too (Mt 17:3) and there's the great cloud of witnesses of Hebrews 12:1.

And then who are these people?

After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. (Rev 7:9)

That's the Church Triumphant. and, as an aside, the Catholic Church fulfills that prophecy all by it's self. :cool:



When the Sacred Scriptures aren't plainly clear (and in this case I think they are) we cam always turn to Sacred Tradition to verify as they both spring from the same source.

To illustrate, if the Blessed Mother is in a grave, where is that grave?

Furthermore, it's well know where the relics of the twelve apostles lie. Not so for the Blessed Mother. Why is that?

To put it most crassly, if you advertised that you had the relics of the Blessed Virgin Mary, no one would believe you. How come?

This is Sacred Tradition. Our faith is real and it's historic. When Jesus Christ established this Church, He wasn't fooling around.

Tradition scares me as much as the authority and opinions of myself and others we taint and blur so many things with both sides being guilty of bloodshed it's hard to find the gem of wisdom in the hot coals of fear.
 
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