Let's Talk About Hell

martymonster · Jun 22, 2010

Timothew said:
Der Alter mentioned this verse, too. 1 of 2 good verses amongst his 28 verses that really (I'm sorry!) didn't have anything to do with anything. I'm wondering how this verse can mesh with 1 John 5:11-12.

Could it be the beast that drinks the wine, and it's the smoke from his fire that goes up forever?

Could smoke of their torment be figurative language for death?

Dude, everything in the entire book of Revelation from beginning to end is all symbolic.

You do not get to choose which part is and which part isn't.

Revelation clearly tells you that itself at the beginning of it.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

So now you have to decied whether the saviour of the world is a man or a four footed barn yard animal.

martymonster · Jun 22, 2010

Hentenza said:
Ah, so are you advocating soul sleep?

Do you not know what the word dead means?

Dead, finished, game over.

That's why We have the resurrection of the dead, and not the resurrection of the body.

Dead is dead!

No soul sleep required.

Pythons · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
Oh man, does heresy ever take a day off?

I don't know how much clearer the bible could make it that when you die you cease to exist!

There is no consciousness in the grave after you die!

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Then logic would demand that you also hold those who die are DONE permanently......
....Because the author of Eccl says just that. i.e. they NO LONGER have a part in ANYTHING.

You would agree that the Resurrection would be "something", no?

Marty said:
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

You need to keep reading those Scriptures and specifically the Scriptures around those you quoted.....
...They will educate you that you have adopted a semi-Sadducee theology.

Marty said:
Dead means dead!

And according to Eccl it means PERMANENTLY....
...So what are you going to do about that.

Marty said:
When your asleep you are not up walking around are you?

You "dream" and have a certain awareness....

Marty said:
Plus, what's the point of having a first or second resurrection if We all have an immortal soul?
That just makes the first and second resurrections less than useless!

Eternal Life is associated with the union of the soul with it's body......
...A fact you are evidenly not aware of.
...How long have you been in an Adventist group.

Marty said:
Even Christ had to be raised to life by God because He was dead.

There is no doubt you are an Adventist....
...Which group do you associate yourself with?

Marty said:
Christ was not down in Hell preaching to people in Hell, and He certainly wasn't in Heaven with the thief on the cross.

He was dead!

He died for your sins!

Think about the rediculousness of it all.

I'll wait for you answer as to what Adventist denomination you hail from.....
....So I can better answer your questions.

Marty said:
The dead who are already immortal spirits are sucked back into their bodies to be physically resurrected in their physical bodies so that they can be changed into immortal spirits again in the twinkling of an eye.

No wonder God calls the wisdom of the world stupidity, because it is!

DEAD!

This will be fun Marty and I certainly look forward to your answers.

martymonster · Jun 22, 2010

Der Alter said:
I will not go so far as to call it stupidity but this post certainly is unscriptural and heretical. What you have done is ignore every scripture posted by several people, posted two out-of-context proof texts and say "My scripture beats your scripture."

Your first proof text says nothing about the eternal condition of the dead. It is part of proverbs written from the point of view of a mortal man, what he can perceive with his five senses. While it is the word of God the passage does NOT say "Thus saith the Lord. . ."
Eccl 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
However, if we look at the context, Solomon is speaking of what happens in the physical lifetime. See verse 3 and 5, both clearly state things that are done under the sun.
And our little out-of-context phrase is sandwiched between those two statements
This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, . . . after that they go to the dead.. . . but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
The dead know not anything that is done under the sun and they do not have any portion in anything done under the sun If vs. 5 refers to the eternal condition of the dead then even the righteous do not receive any reward, "neither have they any more a reward; vs. 5.

One final verse which shows the writer of Proverbs is not speaking of the dead ceasing to exist.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast whether it goeth downward to the earth?
The writer of Proverbs did not know what happened to the soul of a man when he died.

Your other out-of-context proof text.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
This passage does NOT say that the dead perish, cease to exist as you claim. Note the word "IF" The dead perish ONLY if Christ is not raised.

Context, context, context.

Show me in scripture where it says that scripture is to be understood in context?

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Nothing about context there.

BTW, here is something else from Solomon.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

All go to one place, which is in the ground because We are all just animals without an immortal soul.

It doesn't really get any clearer than that!

Der Alte · Jun 22, 2010

Timothew said:
Der Alter mentioned this verse, too. 1 of 2 good verses amongst his 28 verses that really (I'm sorry!) didn't have anything to do with anything.[ . . . ]

Actually those 28 verses have everything to do with the topic of this thread which is, "Lets talk about hell." Problem is nobody will read them and try to address them. Guess that's because those verses blow away all their assumptions/presuppositions about the eternal punishment of the unrighteous. They will try to argue that every verse, spoken by Jesus, which contradicts them is figurative, symbolic, etc. but any verse by a disciple must be understood literally. If there is an apparent contradiction who is the authority Jesus, or the disciples?

martymonster · Jun 22, 2010

Pythons said:
[/b]

Then logic would demand that you also hold those who die are DONE permanently......
....Because the author of Eccl says just that. i.e. they NO LONGER have a part in ANYTHING.

You would agree that the Resurrection would be "something", no?

You need to keep reading those Scriptures and specifically the Scriptures around those you quoted.....
...They will educate you that you have adopted a semi-Sadducee theology.

And according to Eccl it means PERMANENTLY....
...So what are you going to do about that.

You "dream" and have a certain awareness....

Eternal Life is associated with the union of the soul with it's body......
...A fact you are evidenly not aware of.
...How long have you been in an Adventist group.

There is no doubt you are an Adventist....
...Which group do you associate yourself with?

I'll wait for you answer as to what Adventist denomination you hail from.....
....So I can better answer your questions.

This will be fun Marty and I certainly look forward to your answers.

You can see from my post and know full well that I believe in the resurrection of the dead.

I can already see that you are only interested in twisting my words to say what I didn't say so no I am not interested.

Hentenza · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
Do you not know what the word dead means?

Dead, finished, game over.

That's why We have the resurrection of the dead, and not the resurrection of the body.

Dead is dead!

No soul sleep required.

So you as a believer just die until the resurrection? What happens to your soul or do you even believe that we have one?

Der Alte · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
Context, context, context.

Show me in scripture where it says that scripture is to be understood in context?

If you ignore the context then all you have is gibberish every Jim Jones, or David Koresh can translate any verse any old way they want to, jam widely disparate verses to together, regardless of who is speaking to whom, under what circumstance, etc., and prove almost anything, which is exactly what you have done. Sorry amigo, don't want none of your koolaid.

[. . . Irrelevant out-of-context verses omitted . . . ]
Nothing about context there.

BTW, here is something else from Solomon.
[. . . Irrelevant out-of-context verses omitted . . . ]

All go to one place, which is in the ground because We are all just animals without an immortal soul.

It doesn't really get any clearer than that!

The topic of this thread is "Lets Talk about hell." You ignored my post and just posted some irrelevant verses. You failed to note that Solomon said he did NOT know what happened to the spirit when a man dies.

Hentenza · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
Dude, everything in the entire book of Revelation from beginning to end is all symbolic.

You do not get to choose which part is and which part isn't.

Revelation clearly tells you that itself at the beginning of it.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

So now you have to decied whether the saviour of the world is a man or a four footed barn yard animal.

I completely disagree with you. The Greek word ἐσήμανεν translated here as signify means to communicate, to indicate. There is not a single grammatical reason to consider the entire book of Revelation an allegory. none. Nada.

As a matter of fact, verse two is clear that it is NOT an allegory unless you consider the testimony of Jesus Christ and the word of God an allegory which is absurd.

martymonster · Jun 22, 2010

Hentenza said:
So you as a believer just die until the resurrection? What happens to your soul or do you even believe that we have one?

Your soul is your mind which resides in your brain.
Your body is just a life support for you brain.
When your body dies so does your brain, thus no more soul.

You do not have some mythical ghost inside you floating around.

Your soul is your self, your personality and when you die so does your soul.

Hentenza · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
Your soul is your mind which resides in your brain.
Your body is just a life support for you brain.
When your body dies so does your brain, thus no more soul.

You do not have some mythical ghost inside you floating around.

Your soul is your self, your personality and when you die so does your soul.

Well, I certainly do not believe that. Paul told us that to be absent from the body is to be home with the Lord. Matthew tells us to do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul. There is plenty of biblical evidence for a soul.

martymonster · Jun 22, 2010

Hentenza said:
I completely disagree with you. The Greek word ἐσήμανεν translated here as signify means to communicate, to indicate. There is not a single grammatical reason to consider the entire book of Revelation an allegory. none. Nada.

As a matter of fact, verse two is clear that it is NOT an allegory unless you consider the testimony of Jesus Christ and the word of God an allegory which is absurd.

To inacate what, words?
No, symbols.
Unless you believe in a literal four horsemen!

So Jesus is a four footed barn yard animal then?

So you think it is rediculous that Jesus Christ would talks in parables then?

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Jesus Christ spoke in parables then and He speaks in parables now and the book of Revelation is one giant parable, but if you think thats rediculous then that's between you and God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Der Alte · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
Dude, everything in the entire book of Revelation from beginning to end is all symbolic.

You do not get to choose which part is and which part isn't.

Revelation clearly tells you that itself at the beginning of it.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

So now you have to decied whether the saviour of the world is a man or a four footed barn yard animal.

So you think the word "signified" means all of Revelation is symbolic. Here are three vss. which use the same word. Was the death of Jesus only symbolic?

Joh 12:32-33
(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Joh 18:32
(32) That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

Joh 21:19
(19) This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

martymonster · Jun 22, 2010

Hentenza said:
Well, I certainly do not believe that. Paul told us that to be absent from the body is to be home with the Lord. Matthew tells us to do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul. There is plenty of biblical evidence for a soul.

I really do not have time to debate this right now but I will answer once more.

Paul said He was absent from the body that does not say that He was He disembodied spirit.

Killing you mind is means to destroy your way of thinking that is of the world not you literal physical mind.

Being physically killed does not change who you are.
Only God can do that, men can't!

Hentenza · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
To inacate what, words?
No, symbols.

There are portions of revelation which uses symbolic imagery to depict an event, however, each must be taken in context. You can't commit hermeneutical suicide by just making a sweeping absolute statement that all of the book is allegory.

Unless you believe in a literal four horsemen!

You don't think that God is powerful enough?

So Jesus is a four footed barn yard animal then?

Huh?

So you think it is rediculous that Jesus Christ would talks in parables then?

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Jesus taught in parables. Do you know what a parable is? Do you know why Christ taught in parables? Is everything that Christ taught one big parable? Do you automatically discount the literal teaching of a parable simply because is a parable? Did Jesus use imaginary names and locations in His parables?

Jesus Christ spoke in parables then and He speaks in parables now and the book of Revelation is one giant parable, but if you think thats rediculous then that's between you and God.

Do you not know that all parables are identified as a parable, right? The book of revelation is not a parable. Again, you have no grammatical evidence to support that.

Der Alte · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
To inacate what, words?
No, symbols.
Unless you believe in a literal four horsemen!

So Jesus is a four footed barn yard animal then?

So you think it is rediculous that Jesus Christ would talks in parables then?

Every so often another Jim Jones, David Koresh comes along trying to tell everybody that the church has been wrong for 2000 years and only they know how to correctly interpret all the symbolic, figurative, etc language in the Bible. And without them and their special esoteric interpretation we are dead.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Right! To the lost multitude Jesus spoke in parables but to his disciples he spoke plainly. I am a disciple not one of the lost multitude and I don't need some Jim Jones, David Koresh claiming that only he can interpret the Bible.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

This verse has nothing to do with either of the other verses you posted.

Jesus Christ spoke in parables then and He speaks in parables now and the book of Revelation is one giant parable, but if you think thats rediculous then that's between you and God.

You now have NO, ZERO, NONE evidence that all of Revelation is symbolic.

Hentenza · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
I really do not have time to debate this right now but I will answer once more.

Paul said He was absent from the body that does not say that He was He disembodied spirit.

Killing you mind is means to destroy your way of thinking that is of the world not you literal physical mind.

Being physically killed does not change who you are.
Only God can do that, men can't!

Well Marty, you have already confessed that scripture doesn't have to be understood in context so frankly your exegesises have little meaning and believability. There is not a profitable way to communicate truth to you without using the basic tools of hermeneutics including grammar and context.

There is nothing in scripture that supports your view that there is no soul but just a mind.

SkyWriting · Jun 22, 2010

Timothew said:
I'm not sure about Hell.

I know there is eternal life, the scriptures say so:
God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:11-12)

So there is eternal life in God's Son, and there is no eternal life outside God's Son.
I don't think that people can have eternal life in hell,
if they have eternal life, they are in the Son of God, not in Hell.
If they are not in the Son of God, they don't have eternal life, therefore, after they die, they are dead.

I don't think any of this contradicts scripture, if it does, let me know.

That's not very scary. Can I do drugs, kill people, steal money and live the good life until I die? No church time, no preachers...then I die?

Sounds like a good deal to me.

SkyWriting · Jun 22, 2010

martymonster said:
Your soul is your mind which resides in your brain.
Your body is just a life support for your brain.
When your body dies so does your brain, thus no more soul.
You do not have some mythical ghost inside you floating around.
Your soul is your self, your personality and when you die so does your soul.

That's not well supported theory.
It works for animals, but Humans are different.
You may not have noticed.

SkyWriting · Jun 22, 2010

Der Alter said:
Actually those 28 verses have everything to do with the topic of this thread which is, "Lets talk about hell." Problem is nobody will read them and try to address them. Guess that's because those verses blow away all their assumptions/presuppositions about the eternal punishment of the unrighteous. They will try to argue that every verse, spoken by Jesus, which contradicts them is figurative, symbolic, etc. but any verse by a disciple must be understood literally. If there is an apparent contradiction who is the authority Jesus, or the disciples?

"Punishment" is not accurate. "Cause and effect" is more apt.

IF thou eat from the tree, thou shalt surely die.

Cause....Effect. Not punishment.

Let's Talk About Hell

Veteran

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Veteran

I will fear no evil for You are with me

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Veteran

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Veteran

I will fear no evil for You are with me

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

I will fear no evil for You are with me

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