Let's Talk About Hell

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If the unrighteous, in hades, eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs nor any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in. When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, many shall not be able, to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, Everyone shall be able to enter? When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in hades, the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now Gods unchanging word will still say, neither can they pass to us.

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, a certain man, a certain king, etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in. When does this verse change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

chingchang · May 20, 2010

Der Alter said:
[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
If the unrighteous, in hades, eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs nor any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?
[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in. When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, many shall not be able, to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, Everyone shall be able to enter? When does that change occur?
[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.
[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in hades, the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now Gods unchanging word will still say, neither can they pass to us.

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, a certain man, a certain king, etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in. When does this verse change?
[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?
[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Just because the Jews believed something doesn't make it true...they believed all kinds of crazy stuff throughout their history as "God's People". Shoot...they weren't even monotheistic throughout most of the OT.

Try this on for size...

Was the Doctrine of Hell Manufactured by Theologians?

Look...all I'm saying is that anyone can come here and present ammo for their case by citing extra-Biblical sources. We can go round and round on this. My teaching on the issue of hell is very easy to understand and consistent with Biblical text and the character of God as revealed to us through the Bible. God does not torture endlessly. There is not one instance in the history of man (as revealed in the Bible) that God has tortured endlessly or has condoned endless torture. Why would the text tell us that he has the ability to DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL in hell if that is not what he will do? Can you imagine our loving God saying to someone "I COULD destroy you...but instead I think I'll torture you endlessly"? That simply does not fit AT ALL with the character of God as revealed in the Bible.

All of that said...I'll leave open the possibility that the Bible might not tell us everything about God with regard to his ethics. He very well might be a torturous God. However...there is no way to know that via the Bible.

CC

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

chingchang said:
Just because the Jews believed something doesn't make it true...they believed all kinds of crazy stuff throughout their history as "God's People". Shoot...they weren't even monotheistic throughout most of the OT.

How do you think this replies to my post which you quoted? I quoted 28 passages spoken by Jesus and you talk about what the Jews believed. Your opinion about the Jews not being monotheistic is meaningless! Whatever the Jews were, God chose them, warts and all. And according to Paul in Romans 10-11 the Jews are still God's chosen people.

Try this on for size...

Was the Doctrine of Hell Manufactured by Theologians?[ . . . ]

Why should I read a website by some unknown person, who starts off his website with a bunch of lies?

Lulav · May 20, 2010

Der Alter , would you kindly explain why you think Messianic Jews are a "false religious group"?

chingchang · May 20, 2010

How do you think this replies to my post which you quoted? I quoted 28 passages spoken by Jesus and you talk about what the Jews believed. Your opinion about the Jews not being monotheistic is meaningless! Whatever the Jews were, God chose them, warts and all. And according to Paul in Romans 10-11 the Jews are still God's chosen people.

You quoted information from 'Jewish Encyclopedia'.

Why should I read a website by some unknown person, who starts off his website with a bunch of lies?

You shouldn't read it. You can't be wrong...

CC

LittleLambofJesus · May 20, 2010

Try this on for size...

Was the Doctrine of Hell Manufactured by Theologians?[ . . . ]

There is a thread on that over here if thou and other are interested

http://www.christianforums.com/t6968877/
What church started the Eternal Hellfire doctrine

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

chingchang said:
You quoted information from 'Jewish Encyclopedia'.

I'm aware of that amigo, but you did not quote that post or address it in any meaningful way.

You shouldn't read it. You can't be wrong...

Is this supposed to make sense? Just because some dood has a M.D., if he does as he claims, that does not make him a Bible expert.

Edited to add: I took a second glance at your link. I made a mistake it was not a dood, it was a woman. Here is an example of one of her lies.

Conclusion

The doctrine of "hellfire" was manufactured primarily by Augustine and Jerome, with an insolent nudge by Terullian, in accordance with their own vindictive and unforgiving characters, and their incorrect translation of the word eon.

How could Augustine's doctrine of "hellfire" get a nudge from Tertullian? Tertullian lived from 160-220, Augustine from 354-430. Tertullian died 134 years before Augustine was born, he couldn't nudge anything of his. And, of course, as I have shown the Jews believed in eternal punishment of the unrighteous 1350+ years before Augustine was born.

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

Lulav said:
Der Alter , would you kindly explain why you think Messianic Jews are a "false religious group"?

Only the non-Trinitarians. Once upon a time I was living/working about 19 miles from Disneyland. When I moved in I was having cable installed. My wife was very impressed by the cable guy's deep resonant voice and told him he should use his gift working for God. He said he did. In addition to singing, teaching, speaking in his church, he was the radio voice of a major SD NFL team. What started out to be a 15-20 minute cable installation turned in to a 1.5+ hour fellowship. He was born and raised a Jew in the east but became a Messianic when he went to college. He still observed Torah but not because he was obligated to but because he was memorializing his Jewish heritage and he was completely at home fellowshipping with two non-Jewish Christians who did not observe Torah as he did.

LittleLambofJesus · May 20, 2010

I did find a thread on the MJ board concerning hell that Visionary created [seems to be the only one on there]......Interesting

Messianic Judaism - Christian Forums

http://www.christianforums.com/t1529924/http://www.christianforums.com/t1529924-5/#post15033310
Oh Hell

chingchang · May 20, 2010

I'm aware of that amigo, but you did not quote that post or address it in any meaningful way.

You quoted the Jewish Encyclopedia as if to dismiss the idea that the doctrine of eternal torture was created by the Catholic Church. This debate we're having has nothing to do with "Gehenna"...which by the way never appears in the Hebrew OT...this debate has to do with what happens in hell. You obviously think people are tortured there forever...without end. I strongly believe that my Father...the Most High God...would NEVER do that to someone based on his character as revealed through the Bible.

Is this supposed to make sense? Just because some dood has a M.D., if he does as he claims, that does not make him a Bible expert.

I was being sarcastic. I openly challenge you to read that page and think about it. I used to believe as you do...as that is what my Church taught. However...upon further examination of the scriptures with help from the Holy Spirit I now realize the error and evil behind the doctrine of eternal torture.

CC

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
I did find a thread on the MJ board concerning hell that Visionary created [seems to be the only one on there]......Interesting

Messianic Judaism - Christian Forums

http://www.christianforums.com/t1529924/http://www.christianforums.com/t1529924-5/#post15033310
Oh Hell

I skimmed down thru it and it is the same conglomeration of tired worn out stuff posted here, e.g. "Gehenna doesn't mean hell it was only the garbage dump outside Jerusalem." Seems to me, if someone is claiming to be Jewish or Messianic they would, at least, check Jewish sources, e.g. the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, both free online, when they presume to state what the ancient Jews believed.

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

chingchang said:
You quoted the Jewish Encyclopedia as if to dismiss the idea that the doctrine of eternal torture was created by the Catholic Church. This debate we're having has nothing to do with "Gehenna"...which by the way never appears in the Hebrew OT...this debate has to do with what happens in hell. You obviously think people are tortured there forever...without end. I strongly believe that my Father...the Most High God...would NEVER do that to someone based on his character as revealed through the Bible.

The title of this thread is "Let's talk about hell." I was talking about hell, my post was dead on topic! The valley of Hinnom is certainly mentioned in the O.T. What you "strongly believe" is irrelevant unless you can support it from scripture. So far I have seen none, just your opinion and one link to a website full of lies. OTOH I have supported my argument with, at least, 68 passages of scripture. Jesus very clearly refutes your belief what the Father would do.

I was being sarcastic. I openly challenge you to read that page and think about it. I used to believe as you do...as that is what my Church taught. However...upon further examination of the scriptures with help from the Holy Spirit I now realize the error and evil behind the doctrine of eternal torture.

See my post above. I stopped reading the first time after about the third out and out lie at the website. Check out my discussion of the 28 passages by Jesus.

Mathetes the kerux · May 20, 2010

chingchang said:
Just because the Jews believed something doesn't make it true...they believed all kinds of crazy stuff throughout their history as "God's People". Shoot...they weren't even monotheistic throughout most of the OT.

Try this on for size...

Was the Doctrine of Hell Manufactured by Theologians?

Look...all I'm saying is that anyone can come here and present ammo for their case by citing extra-Biblical sources. We can go round and round on this. My teaching on the issue of hell is very easy to understand and consistent with Biblical text and the character of God as revealed to us through the Bible. God does not torture endlessly. There is not one instance in the history of man (as revealed in the Bible) that God has tortured endlessly or has condoned endless torture. Why would the text tell us that he has the ability to DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL in hell if that is not what he will do? Can you imagine our loving God saying to someone "I COULD destroy you...but instead I think I'll torture you endlessly"? That simply does not fit AT ALL with the character of God as revealed in the Bible.

All of that said...I'll leave open the possibility that the Bible might not tell us everything about God with regard to his ethics. He very well might be a torturous God. However...there is no way to know that via the Bible.

CC

My teaching on the issue of hell is very easy to understand and consistent with Biblical text and the character of God as revealed to us through the Bible. God does not torture endlessly.

Yet u ignore the other passages where it says that He does . . . that is not biblically consistent bro, sorry.

There is not one instance in the history of man (as revealed in the Bible) that God has tortured endlessly or has condoned endless torture.

There is no instance because the time to start the endless torture has not yet come

And Jesus states clearly in Matt 25 that it is a fact, and Revelation 14 and 21, 22 all state the same. No dice.

Why would the text tell us that he has the ability to DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL in hell if that is not what he will do?

Proper systematics reconciles ALL the texts bro . . . and if a literal understanding of this passage conflicts with a proper hermeneutic, then the interpretation returns to the drawing board. Easy enough.

Can you imagine our loving God saying to someone "I COULD destroy you...but instead I think I'll torture you endlessly"? That simply does not fit AT ALL with the character of God as revealed in the Bible.

AH HA! And herein lies the error in your presupposition. I would submit to you that your concept of LOVE is erroneous . . . you have imported into the text what YOU think love is and have COMPLETELY disregarded the other character traits of God that He is also 100% while still loving. IOW in His love he is also COMPLETELY righteous and HOLY . . . and your understanding of the WORTH of God is in error because you do not see sin correctly in its primary understanding in relating to SMEARING THE WORTH AND VALUE OF JESUS HIMSELF. You do not get the height of the sin, but are merely understanding its breadth.

So, your presupposition is coloring your understanding.

Lets start here, why does Jesus need to be God to atone for sin? Why not some mere man? Perhaps we can work from here on a proper hermeneutic on sin in relation to Gods glory and then we can talk about appropriate punishment for sin for a God who is also loving.

He very well might be a torturous God. However...there is no way to know that via the Bible.

Couldnt be further from the truth . . . do you think that Jesus suffering on the Cross was joyous? Was it pleasant? The issue is not does the consequences of sin require that God be wrathful towards us (burning fury and indignation . . . what you have so eloquently called "torture" . . . which is not a fair term anyway), but HOW LONG DOES THAT WRATHFUL FURY LAST. Agreed?

Lulav · May 21, 2010

Der Alter said:
I skimmed down thru it and it is the same conglomeration of tired worn out stuff posted here, e.g. "Gehenna doesn't mean hell it was only the garbage dump outside Jerusalem." Seems to me, if someone is claiming to be Jewish or Messianic they would, at least, check Jewish sources, e.g. the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, both free online, when they presume to state what the ancient Jews believed.

Actually the Jewish Encyclopedia is not a good source. The JE is like a Jewish Funk and Wagtails.

Your better 'free' source might be Judaism 101

Hell The place of spiritual punishment and/or purification for the wicked dead in Judaism is not referred to as Hell, but as Gehinnom or She'ol. According to most sources, the period of punishment or purification is limited to 12 months, after which the soul ascends to Olam Ha-Ba or is destroyed (if it is utterly wicked). See Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife.

Gehenna or Gehinnom was the towns dump that was always burning, full of death, destruction and pain. Jesus used this depiction because it was the most unclean and distasteful place around to give them an idea of what it would be like. It really should be translated as 'Hell fire' which would make it better understood as to the comparison of this place outside Jerusalem.

Lulav · May 21, 2010

Der Alter said:
Only the non-Trinitarians. Once upon a time I was living/working about 19 miles from Disneyland. When I moved in I was having cable installed. My wife was very impressed by the cable guy's deep resonant voice and told him he should use his gift working for God. He said he did. In addition to singing, teaching, speaking in his church, he was the radio voice of a major SD NFL team. What started out to be a 15-20 minute cable installation turned in to a 1.5+ hour fellowship. He was born and raised a Jew in the east but became a Messianic when he went to college. He still observed Torah but not because he was obligated to but because he was memorializing his Jewish heritage and he was completely at home fellowshipping with two non-Jewish Christians who did not observe Torah as he did.

Lovely story, and that is how I classify myself even though others seek to impose my observance in a way they think I am doing it.

But Der Alter that was not what you said, about it being Non Trinitarian MJ's.

Der Alter said:
This is a common ploy used by virtually all false religious groups which came into existence in, or after, the late 19th century, e.g. JW, LDS, OP, UU, MJ, kristadelfian, etc.,

There is nothing distinguishing in your remark or accusation that says anything about the belief in the Trinity or not. You have grouped myself and fellow believing Messianics in with these other groups which we also find a bit heretical if I may say so here and this casts dispersions on our beliefs.

There are enough others out here that do that, if you understand what a believing MJ is by your personal encounter with one, then I would so appreciate it if you would amend you post and not include us in that group.

Thank you.

PS. that is the best Cable installation story I've ever heard!

ShermanN · May 21, 2010

Der Alter said:
I notice you have ignored my post from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, which shows that for the ancient Jews Gehenna was what "Hell" is for most English speakers. Had you bothered to read the post you would have seen at least 39 scripture upon which the ancient Jews based their belief in a place of eternal punishment which they called Gehenna. Evidently there was enough warning in the O.T. for the ancient Jews.

Actually, I've read and reread the article in the Jewish Encyclopedia multiple times, before you mentioned and since you've mentioned it. As I shared, it notes that for the average person (Jew and Gentile) Gehenna was considered a place of Remedial Punishment, as in Purgatory. It was only for the especially evil people that the Rabbis argued over whether or not Gehenna would Annihilate them or they'd continue to suffer indefinitely longer than 12 months. Traditional Jewish mourning for dead loved ones is built on the belief that Gehenna is a place for Remedial Punishment, as in Purgatory. This was the predominant belief concerning Gehenna, as the passages in the article you quoted indicate.

"To me," IOW based on your assumptions/presuppositions, you don't think there are enough warnings in the Bible about Hell.

My use of "To me" was simply meant to indicate that I recognize that my understanding (or misunderstanding) is based upon the information I've been exposed to and my understanding of God as I've come to know Him. But I recognize that I could be wrong and I could be misunderstanding scripture.

Of course, I also recognize that you could be wrong, your understanding of scripture could be incorrect. I hope that you recognize that too. We all have assumptions and presuppositions.

And concerning the topic at hand, I assume that if "conscious unending torment" was what God planned for most of humanity as a punishment for whatever, that He'd be very plain in stating such in scripture and that such would be foundational part of the Law. But I don't see that in scripture. The Hebrew scriptures do not even have a word word that specifically means "Hell."

Yes, I noted that you ignored most of the post and found 1-2 sentences which you think support your argument. Where do you get that "for most people Gehenna would be a place of remedial punishment?"

If you want to ignore the significance of what is stated in those few sentences, ok. But it states that for the average person, Gehenna was a place of Remedial Punishment, one from which they would arise to Ga Eden (Paradise) after a period of less than 12 months of suffering the continuous flames of the trash dump (Gehenna). And the Rabbis argued over what would happen to the especially wicked in Gehenna; would they be annihilated or would they continue to suffer more than 12 months for an indefinitely long period of time.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mat 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In this life there are few that enter the kingdom of God, that embrace the teachings of Christ. And on judgment day, many people who thought they were teaching righteousness will come to the realization that they did not even know God personally and they will be chastized accordingly. It's pretty simple to me.

Also, concerning Mt.7.13, it is speaking of how truth is narrow, but error is a wide path. This fits perfectly the context of the Sermon on the Mount (Mat. 5-7) where Jesus is countering the teachings and attitudes of the Pharisees. Such teachings and attitudes lead to destruction, but truth leads us to life and in the deception of this world there are relatively few that find it. In other words, the majority is not always right.

Ignoring everything which proves you wrong! Never once does Jesus state or imply that those in Hell will be purified and released. If fact Jesus clearly states the opposite! Here are two back to back posts listing 28 passages, in the order they occur in the N.T., Jesus speaking on the fate of the unrighteous. Here! and Here! Please show me where Jesus ever stated or implied that any punishment was remedial?

As noted, the Jews believed that the average person would rise from Gehenna to Ga Eden, thus Gehenna carried with it the predominant concept of Remedial Punishment, which is the predominant meaning we should read into the passages where Jesus speaks of the metaphor of Gehenna. And as noted concerning Mark 9:49, after warning of the terribleness of the fires of Gehenna, Jesus notes that we shall all be salted by fire. In reality, when we stand in judgment, we all shall have plenty to repent of. Scripture does not say in vain that the Lord shall dry every tear because when we all see just how much we've missed the mark, we'll all weep to one degree or another.

As with all post 19th century false religions you are adept at posting a few out-of-context proof texts.

Click to expand...

I encourage you to study church history, the belief that there is no "Hell" was debated and believed by many in the early church, and various ones throughout church history. Since the rise of the RCC though, it certainly has not been the majority view. But of course, due to the limitations of this forum, such cannot be discussed in this thread under General Theology, so let's just keep to discussing scripture specifically.

What does Jesus mean by salted with fire, for believers?

1Co 3:11-16

Click to expand...

(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

For believers, those who have built on the foundation of Christ, their work will be tried by fire.

Click to expand...

Thanks for bringing this passage up, note that it says "any man's work", it doesn't say "believers only"! Even in this passage, fire is associated with salvation, as in Remedial Judgment. "If any man's work shall be burned (completely), he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Please explain to me, after having been punished for their sins, in fire, for any length of time those who die not knowing, even cursing God, how they will suddenly be all loving, accepting, and appreciative of the same God, they previously cursed and rejected? Human nature being what it is, I'm certain they will be just like rapists, robbers, murderers, etc., in this life, they blame everybody in the world but themselves, and when released from prison the overwhelming majority return to the same life of crime as before.

Click to expand...

Through the Revelation of the Lamb and the Revelation of the Angels! We shall all come face to face with the fire of Truth which works in us Repentance, whether in this life or the life to come. Thank the Lord that salvation is based on Grace, not on how good or bad we've lived our lives. It is by Revelation that we repent. Without revelation, God turning the lights on, we continue to live in darkness; but the light brings us out of darkness.

As for me, I'm thankful that God forgives rapists, robbers, murderers, etc. for I was as bad or worse than many of them. Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but those who are lost; and I believe He did and is doing and shall do just that. PTL!

Click to expand...

Der Alte · May 21, 2010

Lulav said:
Actually the Jewish Encyclopedia is not a good source. The JE is like a Jewish Funk and Wagtails.

This is a logical fallacy, "Poisoning the well" "Nothing at this site is reliable because it is like "X" which is bad." Had you bothered to actually read the articles it cites the Talmud several times. And OBTW the Talmud is available free at, at least, two websites, Come-and_hear and Sacred Texts.

Your better 'free' source might be Judaism 101

Hell The place of spiritual punishment and/or purification for the wicked dead in Judaism is not referred to as Hell, but as Gehinnom or She'ol. According to most sources, the period of punishment or purification is limited to 12 months, after which the soul ascends to Olam Ha-Ba or is destroyed (if it is utterly wicked). See Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife.
Gehenna or Gehinnom was the towns dump that was always burning, full of death, destruction and pain. Jesus used this depiction because it was the most unclean and distasteful place around to give them an idea of what it would be like. It really should be translated as 'Hell fire' which would make it better understood as to the comparison of this place outside Jerusalem.

Neither Judaism 101 nor your explanation mention that ancient Judaism believed that there were many who would be punished forever, without end. Long before the time of Jesus, as the J101 article indicates, Gehinnom was used to refer to the place of eternal punishment and since Jesus NEVER mentions anyone returning from Gehenna, that is how he used the term.

There is no evidence that Gehenna was still a garbage dump at the time of Jesus.

LittleLambofJesus · May 21, 2010

Der Alter said:
This is a logical fallacy, "Poisoning the well" "Nothing at this site is reliable because it is like "X" which is bad." Had you bothered to actually read the articles it cites the Talmud several times. And OBTW the Talmud is available free at, at least, two websites, Come-and_hear and Sacred Texts.

Neither Judaism 101 nor your explanation mention that ancient Judaism believed that there were many who would be punished forever, without end. Long before the time of Jesus, as the J101 article indicates, Gehinnom was used to refer to the place of eternal punishment and since Jesus NEVER mentions anyone returning from Gehenna, that is how he used the term.

There is no evidence that Gehenna was still a garbage dump at the time of Jesus.

What about during and after the divine siege/destruction of OC Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman army?

The destruction of body and soul in gehenna | collaborative theology for the emerging church

*snip*

....Just as the bodies of Jerusalems dead were thrown into the Valley of Hinnom when the Babylonians attacked, so Jesus imagines the dead piling up in the valley of gehenna during the war against Rome. What the prophet Jesus imagines the historian Josephus describes:

Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath. (War 5.12.3).

Der Alte · May 21, 2010

ShermanN said:
DA said:

What does Jesus mean by salted with fire, for believers?

1Co 3:11-16
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
For believers, those who have built on the foundation of Christ, their work will be tried by fire.

Click to expand...

Thanks for bringing this passage up, note that it says "any man's work", it doesn't say "believers only"! Even in this passage, fire is associated with salvation, as in Remedial Judgment. "If any man's work shall be burned (completely), he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

The typical false religion deliberate twisting and misrepresenting scripture. This passage says nothing about believers being in the fire! Why would any forgiven believer ever be punished in fire, was not the atonement of Jesus enough?

You try to make this passage apply to anybody, everybody but you failed to note that it specifically refers to, "if any man build upon this foundation" vs. 12, and "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon.", vs. 14 The "any man" vs. 15 is the same "any man" who has built on the foundation vss. 12 and 14, NOT any man in history! This is further supported by vss. 16 and 17. Paul is NOT talking to, or about, all mankind but those who have built on the foundation of Jesus Christ and who are the temple of God because God's spirit dwells in them.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Note that vs. 17 again refers to "any man" but qualifies it as those who are the temple of God NOT all mankind.

Please explain to me, after having been punished for their sins, in fire, for any length of time those who die not knowing, even cursing God, how they will suddenly be all loving, accepting, and appreciative of the same God, they previously cursed and rejected? Human nature being what it is, I'm certain they will be just like rapists, robbers, murderers, etc., in this life, they blame everybody in the world but themselves, and when released from prison the overwhelming majority return to the same life of crime as before.

Click to expand...

Through the Revelation of the Lamb and the Revelation of the Angels! We shall all come face to face with the fire of Truth which works in us Repentance, whether in this life or the life to come. Thank the Lord that salvation is based on Grace, not on how good or bad we've lived our lives. It is by Revelation that we repent. Without revelation, God turning the lights on, we continue to live in darkness; but the light brings us out of darkness.

As for me, I'm thankful that God forgives rapists, robbers, murderers, etc. for I was as bad or worse than many of them. Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but those who are lost; and I believe He did and is doing and shall do just that. PTL!

A lot of irrelevant Saccharin coated platitudes which do NOT address my questions at all. I am well aware of what God has done and can do but nothing you said addresses or explains about the attitude, feelings, reactions, etc. of those who have been punished for any length of time. In this life, as I said, rapists, robbers, murderers, etc., by and large, do not assume responsibility for their actions, they blame everybody but themselves and once out of prison, most of them return to the same lifestyle. Where in your Bible does it state these same psychopaths suddenly become model citizens after being punished by God? Or in your scenario does God wipe their memories clean and reprogram them to be good citizens? If, so what was the purpose of the punishment? If the person has no knowledge of it?

The Penitent Man · May 21, 2010

If the Kingdom of God is eternal and you are denied access to that kingdom, what happens to you?

Outer Darkness?

Purgatory.

Purgatory doesn't sound so bad, especially if it's only a matter of time before you get to heaven. The urgency of salvation doesn't seem to exist anymore ...

Let's Talk About Hell

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Y'shua is His Name

Newbie

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Regular Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

the penitent man shall pass

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency