Let's Talk About Hell (7)

[Soulgazer]

Nope. You believe in a fairy tale and I don't. I think we have it covered

 

[P1LGR1M]

Nope. You believe in a fairy tale and I don't. I think we have it covered

Very impressive, I guess that pretty much settles it.

God bless.

 

[Fascinated With God]

I believe that death means death.

Circular definitions don't get any more circular than that!

I'm looking at your post and I can see that it applies more to you than it does to me. I'm not arguing over semantics.

You claim that anyone who does not define the soul as a purely redundant term for the body is somehow defining death as something other than death. That is not a logical argument, that is just word games.

In order for believe as you believe, I would have to believe that perish doesn't really mean perish, it means "be sent to hell", eternal life doesn't mean eternal life, it means "die and go to heaven", death doesn't mean death, it means "sent to hell", destroy doesn't mean destroy, it means "be tortured", and destruction doesn't mean destruction it means "kept eternally in pain, but never quite destroyed."

That is quite a run on sentence. You claim that any disagreement with you means that we have defined death as something other than death, but what you have actually done is effectively defined the soul out of existence in order to fabricate a destinctly non-spiritual notion of death.

Then if I say, "I don't think perish means to remain alive forever" to say that I'm quibbling over semantics.

Being conscious in death is not alive. Show me a definition of alive in any dictionary or encyclopedia that includes the body being dead? You are just labeling it alive, but it is an utterly meaningless label, just a semantic word game.

Why don't you just believe whatever you want to believe, and just leave me alone. Stop acting like this, please.

You don't see me calling the Universalists' arguments nothing more than word games. I completely disagree with them, but they have an actual argument that is based on genuine supporting points and not purely semantic manipulation.

 

[Senecharnix]

If the universe and our world were created only 6000 to 7000 years ago, why are we able to see stars that are more than 8000 light years away? We know how far away many of them are using triangulation. Nevertheless, why are we able to see galaxies that are more than two million light years away? Heck, we can see galaxies that are many billions of light years away....One can count the sediment layers exposed by such features as the Grand Canyon to realize that our world is billions of years old. Take core samples from the ground around Houston, Texas. The sedimentary desposits around her extend downward nearly five miles. Geologists have taken core samples extending downward well over a mile. From them, they have counted the annual layers of sediment extending back many millions of years. [I know so because I once worked with some geologists in the Houston area. I was the guy that drew some of the cool charts, graphs, and cross sections that you might have seen in science books.] If they took core samples five miles deep, they could count the annual sedimentary deposits extending back over three billion years....

If humans did not evolve from apes, then how come the vast majority of our genes are exactly the same as are those of the surviving great apes? Many of our genes are also the same as are many of the genes of reptiles, amphibians, and fish. Our blood chemistry is very similar to that of rhesus monkeys. Who put all of those inconvenient remains of prehistoric people in the ground all around our world, showing a progression from more primitive to more highly evolved humans?...

There is absolutely no evidence of a great flood. That is because no great flood has ever covered the entire Earth or even most of its lands....

I have fossils that are so old that they have turned into stone. That process takes many millions of years to unfold. Bones only 7000 years old remain bones....

 

[strangertoo]

... animated discussion ladies and gentlemen... thank you ... and after watching a while might I suggest a better resolution in this case than assertions or science ... from God ?

Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

we know there never was a worldwide flood and indeed simply examining the translations reveals that the bible originally never said any such thing ... 'eretz' refers to 'the land' as in the whole country ... there is simply not enough water in the world for anything like a worldwide flood to the depth of the mountains, nothing like enough , and the original words do not imply any such thing... but the worst possible local flood is conceivably this bad locally because of the topology of the Tigris-Euphrates valley

but here's the thing , the covenant of God is not about the local flood and 'the waters' is used in many places in scripture as a symbol for the masses of sinners of this earth...

and the end of mankind is said to be with a 'flood' of mankind which we are just beginning to see become a reality :-

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Nahum 1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

now the 'prince' is the final 'antichristos' , man of sin, prodigal son of God in his three and a half years of total power over this earth , clearly approaching by the signs given, but not here yet ...

the problems of this earth are simply that it is over-run by billions of sinners following Satan , even in divided mass religion which obviously cannot be of Christ... and God will destroy all sinners in the wrath of God, the end of this earth and this heavens... so there is the ONLY real worldwide flood , of sinners :-

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

now remember the covenant of the rainbow and who has a rainbow above his head [Christ!] ... there is only ONE Flood that destroys ALL flesh... and it is water in the symbolic sense from the 'mouth of Satan' [LIES!]

here thenis it's basis - Rev 13:3-4- worldwide worship of Satan as a false God , almost all men [billions] deceived, and only about two thousand still alive and not deceived... saints whom alone Jesus takes from the wrath of God :-

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die
seemingly it takes a poet, not a scientist or religious sinner to understand what the scripture is about, what the Flood represents... indeed the parabolic menaings behind scripture which are part of the delusion of almost all men 2Thess 2....

the points are all made in scripture, few look and see ... the eyes to see are given free to anyone who asks humbly as a little child, not to those who think they know before listening...

and certainly science depends absolutely on inspiration that only comes from God , not from science or the world... and understanding Holy scripts also can only come by inspiration of God... in either case listening to sinners will not yield the Truth, can only lead to deception and division...

thus as always the best advice comes from God, simply stop sinning by CHOICE not to abuse or desire to abuse others and oneself, and God will TEACH ALL Himself, as you are able to hear the Truth even about oneself....

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello Senecharnix, glad to see you still here.

I plan on starting a thread on Young Earth Creationism where this issue will be looked at and so this thread is not constantly drawn away from it's topic...Hell.

I will briefly answer the questions posed here but hope to get more detail in an appropriate thread.

If the universe and our world were created only 6000 to 7000 years ago, why are we able to see stars that are more than 8000 light years away?

Because we have very good telescopes, maybe? lol

The premise that if the earth were relatively young we would not be receiving or seeing this light is easily understood by understanding that God created the universe, which includes those stars we can view, within the creation period.

When we view an explosion from miles away, do we see the light of that explosion instantaneously or does it take the eye time for that light to travel. To better illustrate this, if we took a telescope and watched an explosion on the son, is the image we are seeing delayed in time or do we see it when it happens?

No different with the light of stars. If it were not for the light God created before He created those stars, we would not see...anything.

We know how far away many of them are using triangulation. Nevertheless, why are we able to see galaxies that are more than two million light years away?

Heck, we can see galaxies that are many billions of light years away....

So we are seeing those stars...in the past?

One can count the sediment layers exposed by such features as the Grand Canyon to realize that our world is billions of years old.

One can also see full trees in many sedimentary layers which geologists will have to admit either these trees lasted millions of years, or...sedimentary layers can occur quite rapidly.

Which is exactly what they were forced to admit concerning Turbidity Currents.

For the Young Earth Geologist, this would explain much of what we see concerning sedimentary layers and point to a global flood being very much a reasonable theory.

Take core samples from the ground around Houston, Texas. The sedimentary desposits around her extend downward nearly five miles. Geologists have taken core samples extending downward well over a mile. From them, they have counted the annual layers of sediment extending back many millions of years. [I know so because I once worked with some geologists in the Houston area. I was the guy that drew some of the cool charts, graphs, and cross sections that you might have seen in science books.] If they took core samples five miles deep, they could count the annual sedimentary deposits extending back over three billion years....

According to them, of course.

Polystrate Fossils.


I have tried to give links which cannot be claimed to be biased by the Christian perspective. Let me know what you think.

If humans did not evolve from apes, then how come the vast majority of our genes are exactly the same as are those of the surviving great apes?

For the same reason you say...

Many of our genes are also the same as are many of the genes of reptiles, amphibians, and fish.

...yet, no one is claiming we have an ancestral tie to these, as they do with apes.

The answer lies in that we have certain building blocks which all life is comprised of. Paul mentions this here:


1 Corinthians 15:38-41

King James Version (KJV)


38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.



While we find similarities in the elements which make up man and animal, there can be no doubt that man is set apart from every animal upon the earth.

We might teach an ape to speak, teach a dolphin to do tricks, they do not share with us in many things.

Our blood chemistry is very similar to that of rhesus monkeys. Who put all of those inconvenient remains of prehistoric people in the ground all around our world, showing a progression from more primitive to more highly evolved humans?...

And we can use a pig's organs in certain operations, but, I don't see anyone wanting to claim too loudly their ancestry being tied to pigs.

As I have asked before, why do we not see this concerning reptiles and birds?

There is absolutely no evidence of a great flood. That is because no great flood has ever covered the entire Earth or even most of its lands....

Depends on who is looking at the evidence. If one is subject to rejecting God and His word at all costs, they will interpret the evidence differently.

If one is inclined to have faith in God's word and believe that He would not give us information by which He can be mocked by, then one might be inclined to see the evidence differently.

While there may be a majority in the scientific world that views geological evidence to point against the events recorded in scripture, it would be insane to embrace "majority rules" as equating to truth. Usually, we see a minority that adhere to truth while the world system is contrary.

Even when "religion" ruled the world. We can view their adherence to truth in their actions, and unfortunately many actions of religious rulers have been contrary to the teaching of scripture.

I have fossils that are so old that they have turned into stone. That process takes many millions of years to unfold. Bones only 7000 years old remain bones....

According to who?

If I ask you your thoughts on Problematica (and again the link is I believe, secular), without looking it up...what would your response be?

It boils down, as I said before...to faith. My faith is that while I might not understand all there is to know, I can in faith believe that God has given me in His word all that I need to know concerning Him. The recorded events are good enough for me.

For those that place thier faith in scientific conclusions yet do not admit that there might be some bias on the part of certain men to discredit God any way they can fail to take an objective position concerning the results of research and the analysis of the data which we have.

So we will all place our faith somewhere.

As I said, I hope to start a thread that will deal with some of the issues of YEC versus OEC and OEE. And while we will all have our biases it is a fascinating discussion. It is unlikely anyone will change their views, lol, but, there are things which both sides will have to admit they have never considered, and I do believe this applies to both sides.

God bless.

 

[dollarsbill]

Oh come on---Come out of the land of candy canes, unicorns and dragons. Evolution is a proven theory, it has been tested every way imaginable and still stands.

Only if God is wrong and you are right.

Exodus 20:11 (NASB)
11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[dollarsbill]

So your faith in geologists should be accepted by me a valid source of faith...lol.

Can you not see you yourself illustrate the ever changing "truths" of your basis of faith?

Who knows what they will believe tomorrow.

Ephesians 4:14 (NASB)
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

 

[strangertoo]

We are supposed to believe global warming despite not only insufficient data, but data withheld? Such as the earth's temperature cooling between 1940-1970 despite drastically rising CO2 emissions?

unfortunate example to choose - Richand Hansen recently debunked that bit of 'cherry-picking' used by big business and BIG money paying millions for deceits of any and all kinds in attempt to falsify global warming by focusing on the lesser effects which act against it periodically , but mask it only briefly ... transiently in its now-proven inexorable ACCELERATION which means it can no longer be halted at 2 degrees C by any means ... that is now hard science fact but there is BIG money to be made in writing denials by any deceitful trick in the book of lying... sadly of course the lies lead to one major aspect of the destruction of the earth:-

Climate Code Red: NASA climate chief demolishes denialist claims on sea levels

-it is already too late anyway! ... the melting of the Greenland Ice Sheet [miles thick] relieves the pressure that prevents the volcanoes underneath the ice from erupting ... thus melting the ice rather quickly [in the next two decades it will be gone] will put terrible strain on the earth and create simultaneous eruptions of volcanoes that have been dormant, building up pressure, for even tens of thousands of years ... multiple gigantic eruptions with vastly more power than the whole of a nuclear war will put so much ash and SO2 into the atmosphere all at once as to block out the sun for many years , killing plants worldwide and thus later animals and mankind in mass starvation... unsurprisngly this is exactly what is described in scripture for this time , and just as in scripture very few people even notice that we are so close to the sudden end of this world for mankind...

Ecclesiastes 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

 

[strangertoo]

Originally Posted by Soulgazer

Oh come on---Come out of the land of candy canes, unicorns and dragons. Evolution is a proven theory, it has been tested every way imaginable and still stands.
​

in actual fact evolution was proven to be 'half-baked' over 50 years ago by information scientists who proved mathematically that as it then stood, it explained only half of what is observed of diversity and similarities in life ...

since then it has been modified with mitochondrial [mother-line] evolution because the mitochondria of the joined gametes all come from the mother and carry their own nucleic acids , but still it doesn't explain everything as some wildly claim in their enthusiasm that mankind knows everything and only by science ... [ignoring that science only knows ANYTHING by inspiration from God of ALL original scientific theories as and when mankind is ready to listen to God , the ONLY time any scientist learns anything 'new to science' is when they are stumped and will listen to God, not when folks go around complacently declaring they know everything 'by science', totally ignoring that everything we know at all came from God in the first place, not from science at all ]

Classic example: Newton was hopelessly wrong about something as seemingly basic as time in Physics, and yet complacency that Physics knew EVERYTHING from Newton's investigations and conclusions paralysed progress in Physics... men stopped seeking the Truth from God because they thought they knew it from Newton, but he was so wrong... they were so wrong ... and bizarrely many still are led astray by Newton's mistakes about time, even in religion [LOL? ... or weep ?]

 

[P1LGR1M]

unfortunate example to choose - Richand Hansen recently debunked that bit of 'cherry-picking' used by big business and BIG money paying millions for deceits of any and all kinds in attempt to falsify global warming by focusing on the lesser effects which act against it periodically , but mask it only briefly ... transiently in its now-proven inexorable ACCELERATION which means it can no longer be halted at 2 degrees C by any means ... that is now hard science fact but there is BIG money to be made in writing denials by any deceitful trick in the book of lying... sadly of course the lies lead to one major aspect of the destruction of the earth:-

Climate Code Red: NASA climate chief demolishes denialist claims on sea levels

-it is already too late anyway! ... the melting of the Greenland Ice Sheet [miles thick] relieves the pressure that prevents the volcanoes underneath the ice from erupting ... thus melting the ice rather quickly [in the next two decades it will be gone] will put terrible strain on the earth and create simultaneous eruptions of volcanoes that have been dormant, building up pressure, for even tens of thousands of years ... multiple gigantic eruptions with vastly more power than the whole of a nuclear war will put so much ash and SO2 into the atmosphere all at once as to block out the sun for many years , killing plants worldwide and thus later animals and mankind in mass starvation... unsurprisngly this is exactly what is described in scripture for this time , and just as in scripture very few people even notice that we are so close to the sudden end of this world for mankind...

Ecclesiastes 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

As I said in a previous post...link pong is unending, though it willnot be eternal nor everlasting...lol.

It is sad that there are many that call themselves Christian that buy into the media hype, not knowing that indeed there will be global warming, but that it will be the result of God's vengeance upon a disbelieving generation.

To worry about global warming, which is a hoax designed to cast fear into the hearts of men that do not rest in Jesus Christ, is to be preoccupied about the things of the world, rather than the things of God.

This link says "global cooling," this links says "global cooling does not deny global warming," and I say...whatever.

Have you considered, strangertoo, what I said?

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

We are supposed to believe global warming despite not only insufficient data, but data withheld? Such as the earth's temperature cooling between 1940-1970 despite drastically rising CO2 emissions?
​

You respond by posting some guy who I guess you believe is suppose to be an authority? lol

Are you aware that we have a recent trend of global cooling? That is fact. The earth temperature dropped from about 1940 to 1970, I think it was.

The point is that we do not have a sufficient record to adequately pinpoint what is going to happen. In the Tribulation, we will see cataclysmic natural phenomena, so whatever happens, no matter how much mankind does to try to avoid those events...they are going to happen.

It is more likely that it is God, not man, that is setting into motion, is setting the stage, so to speak, that prophecy be fulfilled. So will I worry about Greenland Ice Sheet?

No, I will worry about lost souls.

And it is no coincidence that most of the people that but into global warming and are consumed with it, are also deeply involved with other secular humanistic concerns, such as saving whales and trees while babies are slaughtered by the thousands.

Go figure.

And just to be fair, I would liken this to a hyper preoccupation with things political. I know people that can tell you what Glenn Beck had for breakfast but could not work their way through a single passage of scripture and give a reasonable explanation of meaning for that passage.

Do I believe the earth warms and cools?

Of course...it is scientific fact, and we do have enough data available to make this determination.

But do I think that the earth is going to experience events such as are depicted in propaganda films like "The Day After Tomorrow?" Not really. It is God that has laid the foundations of this earth, and it is He that will destroy it. There will be global warming, it is written:


Revelation 8

King James Version (KJV)

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.



Revelation 16:8-9

King James Version (KJV)


8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.


2 Peter 3:10-13

King James Version (KJV)


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.





Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

1 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.




Yes, I believe in global warming, but it has little resemblance to the "science" of those that in large part follow after the religion of Secular Humanism.

God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

Again, getting into the realm of superstition. While the self described "prophet" John may have been on hallucinogenics, I would consider it vitally important to know at least a little basic science. Most americans are constantly in a state of panic over junk science. The news some years back was forecasting an increase in sea levels when an Antarctic ice shelf was threatening to break away and drift into warm waters.
Someone who did not flunk high school want to point out why this is junk science?

Do the clouds moving make the wind blow? Methane and carbon dioxide are green house gases, however, water vapor is the critical one. Methane and carbon dioxide's largest producers-----bacteria. As the climate warms, bacteria proliferate. Why is the climate warming? I donno.....why is it simultaneously warming on the other planets?

Telescopes are as close as we have to time machines. Light travels at a fixed rate....in fact it takes eight minutes for the light from the sun to reach us here on earth. When we look at stars that are a billion Light years away, we are seeing light that started a billion years ago. In fact, that star might not even be there anymore.

 

[dollarsbill]

Again, getting into the realm of superstition. While the self described "prophet" John may have been on hallucinogenics, I would consider it vitally important to know at least a little basic science. Most americans are constantly in a state of panic over junk science. The news some years back was forecasting an increase in sea levels when an Antarctic ice shelf was threatening to break away and drift into warm waters.

Someone who did not flunk high school want to point out why this is junk science?

Christians consider Revelation the word of God.

Revelation 22:19 (NASB)
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Where does that leave you?

 

[ann216]

its a real place i know family members who r going there if they dont get saved and I didnt come up with that its in the bible

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello Timothew, still working through the many verses you have given as prooftexts for annihilation, and also trying to get this thread back on track.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Now consider the contrast:


Psalm 1

King James Version (KJV)


1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.



Clearly a reference to temporal living. And there is nothing in the Psalm that negates the clear teaching we have concerning destruction that the wicked will receive in the judgment. They will not stand (meaning their judgment will be negative and they will not be justified) in the judgment resulting in they will not be among those who are justified. Nothing there to reinforce annihilation.

Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

Again the temporal context is evident.

Clearly a Messianic Psalm...


Psalm 2

King James Version (KJV)


1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.



The quote, when kept in the context...


11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.


...is an exhortation to holy living...here.

This...

Revelation 2:26-27

King James Version (KJV)


26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.



...is Millennial, I believe (and that is debatable, of course, but this is my belief on this).


This...


Revelation 12:5

King James Version (KJV)


5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.



...is also Millennial, I believe.


This...


Revelation 19:15

King James Version (KJV)


15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



...sees judgment on the existing world (tribulational) and speaks again of Millennial Rule.

The Psalm, therefore, has in view a temporal judgment of which our understanding is broadened through the revelation of events which will unfold at the end of this Age.

And again, not a suitable proof-text for annihilation. And while we can understand that eternal judgment is the end reslut for wickedness, we have to keep in view that which the text presents, rather than make the text fit our views.

Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

Psalm 5

King James Version (KJV)


1 Give ear to my words, O Lord, consider my meditation.

2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.

3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O Lord; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

8 Lead me, O Lord, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.

9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

12 For thou, Lord, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.



The imprecatory nature of this Psalm is undeniable. The Psalmist does not call for the everlasting destruction of his enemies, and the enemies of God, but of the temporal destruction of the wicked. We see this often.

Now here is a Psalm where eternal judgment is in view (and I will just post a few verses from this Psalm to illustrate):

Psalm 69

King James Version (KJV)

4 They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away.


Speaks of his temporal enemies. But he mentions another enemy of his, also:


5 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.


Consider:


27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


The imprecation is that they not come into "His righteousness," be "blotted out of the book of the living," and not be written with the righteous."

While I think that inspiration and new revelation gives us insight to this, and we can see an application in many texts speaking about eternal judgment, I do think David's understanding of this, like all Old Testament saints, was not at a level we can view it in retrospect, having the additional information concerning Christ and judgment. I think though, we can see David speaking on an eternal level, rather than temporal. In view are temporal enemies, and I think it is safe to say that the Holy Spirit directed this writing beyond David's understanding.

Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

And again I think we see a view into the eternal:


Psalm 9

King James Version (KJV)


1 I will praise thee, O Lord, with my whole heart; I will shew forth all thy marvellous works.

2 I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High.

3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.

5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

7 But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.



We have both the temporal and eternal in view. Past temporal judgment and future eternal judgment is in view, but nothing in this either suggest annihilation (as the fact that nations and past enemies of God will still be judged though they have physically been denied the ability to further their wickedness) nor negates that which is taught in the New Testament.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.


Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 9

King James Version (KJV)

8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.


17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. For the needy shall not always be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.

19 Arise, O Lord; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.

20 Put them in fear, O Lord: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.


The temporal context is evident. The eventual outcome of the wicked is ion view, but, we can see clearly that the focus is more along the lines of "God will destroy from the earth and send wicked men into (physical) death."

The desire is that the nations may know themselves to be men...while they yet live.

Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

Temporal context is made clear in the next verse:

Psalm 21:10

King James Version (KJV)


10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.



I myself do not think procreation will continue in the eternal state, but I am not dogmatic about that as we have only a limited amount of information about the eternal state in which we can consider such issues. I think this:


Matthew 22:30

King James Version (KJV)


30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Notice that temporal judgment is clearly in view. I think the KJV makes this better understood:


Psalm 34

King James Version (KJV)

16 The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.


This, like many of the passages and verses used to support annihilation, speaks of the "existance" of those that are destroyed from the perspective of thsoe that remain alive on the earth. They will not be remembered, they will not again speak, they will do nothing in relation to the physical world...again. We have to keep this in view when examining such texts.

The writer concludes:


21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.

22 The Lord redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.


The evil they do will make them guilty, whereas trust in God relieves those that trust in God of guilt. There is a general principle found in the Old Testament: do that which is right...and live. Do that which is evil...and die.


Okay, I will be returning to your prroftexts from time to time, until I work through them all, lol.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Again, getting into the realm of superstition. While the self described "prophet" John may have been on hallucinogenics, I would consider it vitally important to know at least a little basic science. Most americans are constantly in a state of panic over junk science. The news some years back was forecasting an increase in sea levels when an Antarctic ice shelf was threatening to break away and drift into warm waters.
Someone who did not flunk high school want to point out why this is junk science?

Do the clouds moving make the wind blow? Methane and carbon dioxide are green house gases, however, water vapor is the critical one. Methane and carbon dioxide's largest producers-----bacteria. As the climate warms, bacteria proliferate. Why is the climate warming? I donno.....why is it simultaneously warming on the other planets?

Telescopes are as close as we have to time machines. Light travels at a fixed rate....in fact it takes eight minutes for the light from the sun to reach us here on earth. When we look at stars that are a billion Light years away, we are seeing light that started a billion years ago. In fact, that star might not even be there anymore.

I would agree with this:

Most americans are constantly in a state of panic over junk science.

I guess since you deny the word of God (for which I am actually thankful, Soulgazer, because you will disqualify yourself with most believers that have the Spirit of God to protect them from those that teach secular humanistic philospohies) and continually make vague references to that which is in scripture, I guess you are not interested in actually posting the scripture you mock. So consider the weakness of what man actually knows in comparison to his dogmatic assertion that what he knows...is truth.

Are you familiar with gravitational time dilation? Check it out, Soulgazer.

I wonder if the decision to end space exploration might not have something to do with data that might point to the fact that man was not meant to "explore galaxies," lol.

Was there something abut Hell you wanted to talk about?

God bless.

 

[dollarsbill]

I would agree with this:

I suggest you be aware of those who reject MOST of the Bible. This forum is filled with these. That's why it's called "Unorthodox". It's for religious folks who profess to be Christians but reject the Bible.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I suggest you be aware of those who reject MOST of the Bible. This forum is filled with these.

I agree, yet there is still hope for them, and this we must assume. They cannot resist God if God intends to persude them.

It is by looking at the basis of that rejection that we might be able to point out to these geniuses that context, after all, is not a dirty word...lol.

God bless.

 

[dollarsbill]

I agree, yet there is still hope for them, and this we must assume. They cannot resist God if God intends to persude them.

It is by looking at the basis of that rejection that we might be able to point out to these geniuses that context, after all, is not a dirty word...lol.

God bless.

But their goal is to deceive. Many have fallen from the faith listening to such, giving heed.

 

[Soulgazer]

I would agree with this:



I guess since you deny the word of God (for which I am actually thankful, Soulgazer, because you will disqualify yourself with most believers that have the Spirit of God to protect them from those that teach secular humanistic philospohies) and continually make vague references to that which is in scripture, I guess you are not interested in actually posting the scripture you mock. So consider the weakness of what man actually knows in comparison to his dogmatic assertion that what he knows...is truth.

Are you familiar with gravitational time dilation? Check it out, Soulgazer.

I wonder if the decision to end space exploration might not have something to do with data that might point to the fact that man was not meant to "explore galaxies," lol.

Was there something abut Hell you wanted to talk about?

God bless.

This is going to be the third time I've told you this Pilgrim(said in my best John Wayne)

I believe in the word of God. You can't write down the word of God.

I don't "believe" in the Bible, because I'm a Christian. It is a record of what other people believed, and sometimes a record of what other people believed other people believed. If I believed it was "the word of God" then I wouldn't be a Christian, I would only "believe" I was a Christian.

People who teach the doctrine of Hell, seriously IMO, should not be allowed to have children. Nor should they be allowed around children. They probably shouldn't be allowed around the opposite sex period, because hey, accidents happen.

Look at that poor girl who posted earlier...afraid her family will wind up in hell. What an awful, primitive, debilitating superstition.

What an awful way to view a Loving God.