Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[P1LGR1M]

I can see the truth behind John 8:32 also, that freedom from an oppressive religious theocracy was just a truth away.

John 8:31

King James Version (KJV)


31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;



Freedom from religion and religious oppression is a good thing, but I still cannot figure out how one can read scripture (or, as admitted, some of scripture, or much of scripture, but not all of scripture) and conclude that the Lord taught a denial of the very word He fulfilled, quoted, preached, corrected the doctrine of the religious rulers with...

For one to be a follower of Christ which is commanded of God, despite what the gods of men would have people believe, they must first believe in Him and continue in...HIS word.

And if one rejects that word how then can they say I follow Christ. Rather, they may follow a christ, which would be a robber or a thief, for they are not the Good Shepherd.

You are quite right, the flood is from the Sumerian, the creation account from Babylonia, both heavily polemicised of course. In the older Babylonian, Marduk created the heavens and the earth, and then created Man so that the gods would have someone to worship them. Same story, just insert your favorite deity.

And you still do not get why I bring this up.

Okay, check this out (see here for a further look), Soulgazer. You might at the very least find it interesting. And let me know what you think. I do not confirm this, but I too find it fascinating, and I think you might be able to appreciate it as an exercise in consideration.

Just spare me the "junk science" remarks, lol.

There are numerous extra biblical accounts of a flood figure. There is one, that has some archeological basis behind it, where the Moses like character hid his family and livestock in a mountain cave to escape the unrushing waves of a world flood.

And the fact that this tale is found in nearly every culture does not seem ironic? Cultures separated by distance as well as the ocean, lol.

If the historical record were more complete, we would probably find hundreds, if not thousands of such events, as I am sure tsunamis are not anew phenomena, nor cataclysmic floods, for that matter.

This took place around the time of the explosion of Thebes, which would have caused a massive tsunami that reached miles inland.

And...?

Has science ever figured out exactly what happened to the earth displaced from the Grand Canyon yet? lol

The cave in the mountain, the magical ark settling on a mountain, there is enough similarity to have a reasonable suspicion that the stories are related.

Now explain how cultures so separated could have done so. For that matter, explain why we have people so different yet so similar all across the world? Did man evolve in one place, then spread out, then adapt, creating the different races?

But I can see where one people could do that. If the evolution process was involved, I think we would have lizard people and planet of the apes cultures and so forth. But man is distinct and a higher order than animals.

Let me ask you this: atheists and those that are primarily evolutionistic in their beliefs place man as simply another animal. Do you take that position? Or do you view man as above animals, or better, that man is not an animal?

You would have to be specific. If you mean the earth being 6000 years old, you are living in a fantasy.

Prove I am wrong. As I said, I have no problem with this theory, and it may be I am wrong. Yet I no more believe the earth millions of years old than I believe the Gap Restoration Theory. Men I greatly respect do so, but that does not mean I have to.

As far as living in a fantasy world, it is not I that needs a reality check. Take off the rose-colored glasses my friend, when you examine the scientific world. Just as you mention, and rightly so, that people are ruled by fear, lets not forget the lies that are part of that process. If you think that the scientific community is beyond reproach, my deepest sympathies are with you.

If you mean actual basis for some of the legend, then yes there is. You are familiar with the story of God leading the Israelites via a pillar of fire at night and a column of smoke during the day? This is exactly what the military braziers of the day did. It was a vented globe full of pitch soaked fuel on a long pole carried at the head of an army. The vents were closed in the day so that it smoked, and opened at night for a visible flame. this way the trailing portion of an army would not lose the head of the army.

Nope...not what I meant, lol. What I mean is that we have an ancient witness, though it may be dramatized because it is not inspired, that resembles the biblical account. Kind of like movies made about WWII: the story is not necessarily true, but it glamorizes and dramtizes an historical event.

One athiest gave a link to some research in Israel as a proof against scripture's historicity, and I was able to see in it how it correlated to scripture and harmonized with the early peoples of the region. But it is perspective. If one has trained themselves to reject scripture is valid in it's accounts, then one will obviously miss seeing any correlation.

Just as you charge me with living in a fantasyworld, and embracing myths. Just the reverse.


Continued...

 

[Soulgazer]

Freedom from religion and religious oppression is a good thing, but I still cannot figure out how one can read scripture (or, as admitted, some of scripture, or much of scripture, but not all of scripture) and conclude that the Lord taught a denial of the very word He fulfilled, quoted, preached, corrected the doctrine of the religious rulers.

It's fairly easy, especially knowing which sect the various text came out of, and what they believed. They didn't all believe the same things. John is a Naasene text; They did not consider the Supreme God to be the same as the god of Genesis, or even the god of the pharisee, or at the very least they didn't believe the pharisee to know what they were talking about.

The Naasene believed that no one knew the father but the son---so the history of God begins and ends with Jesus Christ. They did not accept Moses as having spoken with God face to face.

Hence there are verses referring to the "True" God. This would be in opposition to the false god of the Pharisee.

They also relied Heavily on Enoch-- the appellation "Son of man" is an honorific first used in a titular fashion in Enoch, as well as the parable of the sheep being started in Enoch and finished in John; In Enoch God calls His "hirelings", the various kings, judges and prophets, but then in an aside asks His "scribe" to record all of their "excesses".

The Naasene felt that all those before Jesus had attempted to steal the flock from the God of Love, and give them to the gods of violence. The books of the kings and prophets are the record of the attempt to steal the flock.

Anything else I can help you with? Don't hesitate to ask.

 

[Soulgazer]

And the fact that this tale is found in nearly every culture does not seem ironic? Cultures separated by distance as well as the ocean, lol.

If the historical record were more complete, we would probably find hundreds, if not thousands of such events, as I am sure tsunamis are not anew phenomena, nor cataclysmic floods, for that matter.

This is from the Palestine area; It may actually be the "true" Noah story. Or "Gilgamesh". Or maybe representative of a whole host of "noah's " as people struggled for their lives.

And...?

Has science ever figured out exactly what happened to the earth displaced from the Grand Canyon yet? lol

Yes. It's sitting in the bottom of the sea....you can't tell me you didn't know that?

ow explain how cultures so separated could have done so. For that matter, explainN why we have people so different yet so similar all across the world? Did man evolve in one place, then spread out, then adapt, creating the different races?

Similar, but exact. I'm not an anthropologist but Europeans have an ancestral line different than aboriginal Australians by about 5%. "Homo Sapien" is a homogenization of several previous species. The old darwinian chart is being replaced with a new paradigm, thanks to the ability to read the genome sequencing.

But I can see where one people could do that. If the evolution process was involved, I think we would have lizard people and planet of the apes cultures and so forth. But man is distinct and a higher order than animals.

Let me ask you this: atheists and those that are primarily evolutionistic in their beliefs place man as simply another animal. Do you take that position? Or do you view man as above animals, or better, that man is not an animal?

From my religious standpoint the god of nature tried to create an animal image as a slave. The True God, (the creator god thought there was no one above him, due to his massive ego) intervened, and gave the man-animal a higher nature. (cf On the origin of the world, Sophia of Jesus, Apocryphon of John, Hypostasis of the Archons, Gospel of Philip)

From a scientific standpoint, Darwin was wrong; He did not want to admit what was staring him in the face. Man did not descend from an ape. Man is an ape. There were other intelligent species of apes also. We wiped them out, either through interbreeding or warfare

Prove I am wrong. As I said, I have no problem with this theory, and it may be I am wrong. Yet I no more believe the earth millions of years old than I believe the Gap Restoration Theory. Men I greatly respect do so, but that does not mean I have to.

As far as living in a fantasy world, it is not I that needs a reality check. Take off the rose-colored glasses my friend, when you examine the scientific world. Just as you mention, and rightly so, that people are ruled by fear, lets not forget the lies that are part of that process. If you think that the scientific community is beyond reproach, my deepest sympathies are with you.

How can I prove anything to someone who denies science? (while typing over the internet on a computer ) Science is just math. The numbers add up to 4.54 billion years.
Do scientists have varying opinions about how future research will turn out? Yes they do. But once the answer to a particular problem spits out, they move on.

 

[ChrisBot]

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