Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[dollarsbill]

Yes, once again, it is a parable, not a description of hell.

Again, no proof.

The wages of sin is death.

True, spiritual, physical and then 'the second death'. None meaning 'cease to exist'.

 

[Timothew]

Again, no proof.

True, spiritual, physical and then 'the second death'. None meaning 'cease to exist'.

The proof has already been given. Refer to that.

The word is thanatos: Here is the definition: death
Here is the source I used, LSJ Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, θάνατος

Death: the state of being dead.
the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism

This does not mean "continuing to exist as if nothing had happened to end a persons's life."

But as usual, you will not accept expert definitions from Oxford greek and english dictionarys.

 

[dollarsbill]

The proof has already been given. Refer to that.

The word is thanatos: Here is the definition: death
Here is the source I used, LSJ Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, θάνατος

Death: the state of being dead.

This does not mean "continuing to exist as if nothing had happened to end a persons's life."

But as usual, you will not accept expert definitions from Oxford greek and english dictionarys because you are the only person who knows anything and the rest of us (who agree with the experts) are dummys.

When you die you will cease to exist?

 

[Timothew]

When you die you will cease to exist?

When you die, will you continue to be alive?
Did you read the definition or did you ignore it again?

If you are going to continue to ignore the evidence, I will quit replying.

 

[dollarsbill]

When you die, will you continue to be alive?

Yes indeed!

Did you read the definition or did you ignore it again?

If you are going to continue to ignore the evidence, I will quit replying.

Death does not mean 'cease to exist'. All who have 'died' will stand before God quite alive.

 

[Timothew]

Yes indeed!

Death does not mean 'cease to exist'. All who have 'died' will stand before God quite alive.

If you do not read the definition of death, I'm done wasting my time on you. When you are dead, you will not be alive.

As I have told you before and you ignored before, ALL WHO STAND BEFORE GOD ON JUDGMENT DAY HAVE BEEN RESURRECTED TO LIFE, THEY ARE NO LONGER DEAD. THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT RESURRECTION DAY.
I can't believe you don't understand this. I think you are merely trolling.
Goodbye.

 

[Timothew]

Yes indeed!

Death does not mean 'cease to exist'. All who have 'died' will stand before God quite alive.

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

​

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
​

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
​

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
​

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

​

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

John 5:24, Jesus said

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
​

He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

John 8:21

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
​

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 5:12

Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.
​

Paul is saying what happens because of sin and it is death, not eternal torture in hell. If the penalty for sin is eternal torture, then Paul's statement is false. He should have said "Sin came into the world through one man, and eternal torment through sin, and so eternal torment spread to all men because all sinned." But, of course Paul did NOT say that.

Romans 5:21

Sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

Paul is stating the two options: Death through sin OR Eternal life through Jesus Christ. The options are NOT bliss is heaven or torture in hell.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
​

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
​

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
​

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
​

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

​

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
​

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

​

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
​

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

​

Jude 10

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
​

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
​

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

​

Revelation 18:8

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
​

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
​

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
2 for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Psalm 104:35
Let sinners be consumed from the earth,
and let the wicked be no more!



There are thousands of passages like these in Bible, Passages that say the lost are destroyed, and that they perish. In light of the staggering amount of biblical evidence for annihilationism and the abysmal lack of biblical evidence for eternal tormentalism, do you still expect me to go back and believe the lie of eternal tormentalism? Should I stick my hand back into the bear trap?

 

[dollarsbill]

If you do not read the definition of death, I'm done wasting my time on you. When you are dead, you will not be alive.

That is not the Biblical definition of death.

As I have told you before and you ignored before, ALL WHO STAND BEFORE GOD ON JUDGMENT DAY HAVE BEEN RESURRECTED TO LIFE, THEY ARE NO LONGER DEAD. THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT RESURRECTION DAY.

They died but did not 'cease to exist'.

I can't believe you don't understand this. I think you are merely trolling.
Goodbye.

I do understand. The dead will always exist, including those cast into the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Proof positive!

 

[dollarsbill]

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

​

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
​

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
​

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
​

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

​

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

John 5:24, Jesus said

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
​

He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

John 8:21

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
​

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 5:12

Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.
​

Paul is saying what happens because of sin and it is death, not eternal torture in hell. If the penalty for sin is eternal torture, then Paul's statement is false. He should have said "Sin came into the world through one man, and eternal torment through sin, and so eternal torment spread to all men because all sinned." But, of course Paul did NOT say that.

Romans 5:21

Sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

Paul is stating the two options: Death through sin OR Eternal life through Jesus Christ. The options are NOT bliss is heaven or torture in hell.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
​

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
​

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
​

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
​

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

​

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
​

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

​

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
​

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

​

Jude 10

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
​

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
​

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

​

Revelation 18:8

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
​

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
​

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
2 for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Psalm 104:35
Let sinners be consumed from the earth,
and let the wicked be no more!



There are thousands of passages like these in Bible, Passages that say the lost are destroyed, and that they perish. In light of the staggering amount of biblical evidence for annihilationism and the abysmal lack of biblical evidence for eternal tormentalism, do you still expect me to go back and believe the lie of eternal tormentalism? Should I stick my hand back into the bear trap?

I offered to address these one at a time. You did not.

 

[Timothew]

I offered to address these one at a time. You did not.

go ahead, at least then I'll know you read them at least one time.

 

[Timothew]

I offered to address these one at a time. You did not.

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Does this say anywhere that the dead are alive and being tortured in hell? Anywhere? I can tell you it says destruction. It doesn't say eternal living torture in hell. There you go, Jesus disagrees with you. Sorry.

 

[Timothew]

What a waste of time.

dollarsbill, don't expect me to answer anything from you ever again.

 

[dollarsbill]

go ahead, at least then I'll know you read them at least one time.

Psalm 104:35
Let sinners be consumed from the earth,
and let the wicked be no more!

 

[dollarsbill]

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Does this say anywhere that the dead are alive and being tortured in hell? Anywhere? I can tell you it says destruction. It doesn't say eternal living torture in hell. There you go, Jesus disagrees with you. Sorry.

Not there but it certainly does in other places in the NT.

 

[Timothew]

np

 

[Timothew]

Not there but it certainly does in other places in the NT.

Not there. Okay, thanks for finally conceeding.

Go to the second one.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

​

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Does this say anywhere that living dead people will be tortured in hell? Anywhere? Or does it say destroy? Answer: It says destroy.
Once again Jesus disagrees with you.

 

[dollarsbill]

What a waste of time.

dollarsbill, don't expect me to answer anything from you ever again.

What are you talking about???

 

[Timothew]

What are you talking about???

You ignore what I post, as if I didn't post it at all.

 

[dollarsbill]

You ignore what I post, as if I didn't post it at all.

What did I ignore?

 

[Timothew]

The definition of apollmi and death.