Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[ImaginaryDay]

Um, I'm sorry, I missed that. Would you repeat that again?

 

[he-man]

your assuming every single fire in the Bible, is at the same time, and at the same place. Unlikely. Just because God uses the term "fire" to describe His presence doesn't mean that the fire of Hell are just imaginative. ANd it doesn't mean that the fire of hell are exactly the same fire as God's glory. Scripture please?

Perhaps you like this better?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV)
9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (YLT)
8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (GW)
9 They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (BBE)
9 Whose reward will be eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

 

[createdtoworship]

Perhaps you like this better?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV)
9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (YLT)
8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (GW)
9 They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (BBE)
9 Whose reward will be eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

you mention one verse.

what about all the verses about Hell fire, that don't mention God's glory? I thought Hell was away from the Glory of God and away from His presence? Yes?

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of his power;" (II Thessalonians 1:9)

"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all" (I John 1:5). But hell is described as a place of darkness. "These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever" (Jude 13). Darkness is the absence of light. Hell is a place God made where even His presence will not be felt.

As the Psalmist points out, we have never been away from the presence of God. It has always been there. Even death doesn't separate us from God. But one of the awful facts about hell is that God won't be there. You will not be able to pray and ask for deliverance because there will not be anyone there to hear you.

from

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2009/04-07.html

 

[he-man]

you mention one verse.what about all the verses about Hell fire, that don't mention God's glory? I thought Hell was away from the Glory of God and away from His presence? Yes?"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of his power;" (II Thessalonians 1:9)

No, it is those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who are not allowed to see the face of God forever, but are forever destroyed.

(Jude 13). Darkness is the absence of light. Hell is a place God made where even His presence will not be felt.

And NOW the rest of the story...Jude 1:12-15 (ESV)
12 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted;
13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,
15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Surely you are not denying that God made everything Job 38:29 (ESV)
29 From whose womb did the ice come forth, and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?

My Friend, First of all the discriptions of hell are symbolical of the grave and you will not literally burn up, it is symbolical of the grave being a place of eternal destruction for unbelievers, those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ will simply cease to exist;
and God is everywhere, there is not any place where you can hide from Him. Job 12:9-10 (YLT)
9 `Who hath not known in all these, That the hand of Jehovah hath done this?
10 In whose hand is the breath of every living thing, And the spirit of all flesh of man.'

Deuteronomy 4:39 (ASV)
39 Know therefore this day, and lay it to thy heart, that Jehovah he is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else.

Deuteronomy 10:14 (ASV)
14 Behold, unto Jehovah thy God belongeth heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth, with all that is therein.

 

[dollarsbill]

No, it is those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who are not allowed to see the face of God forever, but are forever destroyed.

Forever destroyed?

 

[createdtoworship]

No, it is those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who are not allowed to see the face of God forever, but are forever destroyed.
And NOW the rest of the story...Jude 1:12-15 (ESV)
12 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted;
13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,
15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Surely you are not denying that God made everything Job 38:29 (ESV)
29 From whose womb did the ice come forth, and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?

My Friend, First of all the discriptions of hell are symbolical of the grave and you will not literally burn up, it is symbolical of the grave being a place of eternal destruction for unbelievers, those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ will simply cease to exist;
and God is everywhere, there is not any place where you can hide from Him. Job 12:9-10 (YLT)
9 `Who hath not known in all these, That the hand of Jehovah hath done this?
10 In whose hand is the breath of every living thing, And the spirit of all flesh of man.'

Deuteronomy 4:39 (ASV)
39 Know therefore this day, and lay it to thy heart, that Jehovah he is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else.

Deuteronomy 10:14 (ASV)
14 Behold, unto Jehovah thy God belongeth heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth, with all that is therein.

but just because your dead doesn't mean you cease to exist. In the "darkness" you still exist. when you are "uprooted" and moved you still exist. My car was destroyed at the junkyard but it still exists. Got any more verses to share?

 

[JPD]

aion can be used both of eternal and temporary, so how do you know if the temporary is only speaking of Hell?

Lol! No it cant! IT NEVER DOES! Age means age. An adjective cannot take on a different meaning! You can have an age or a long age. You CANT have a LONG eternity!!!

You can have a crayon or a red crayon - the red doesn't make the crayon a pencil!

Ask yourself this question; What does forever mean?

Answer: You might answer something like "eternal" - "without a beginning or an end" for example.


Now answer this question: What does forever AND ever mean?

Here's the only possible answer according to your logic. An eternity + an eternity - something that has no beginning and an end + well....something that has no beginning or an end!

Well there's NO SUCH THING! Now can you see why the Greek is right - "age of the ages" - an age out of a succession of ages ie. an age of chastisement followed by an age of correction. OF, OF, OF. It's not AND!

I've tried and failed and failed again on these threads to quote Biblical Language scholars who say the same thing. No-one believes them.

2+2 = 5?

 

[createdtoworship]

Lol! No it cant! IT NEVER DOES! Age means age. An adjective cannot take on a different meaning! You can have an age or a long age. You CANT have a LONG eternity!!!

You can have a crayon or a red crayon - the red doesn't make the crayon a pencil!

Ask yourself this question; What does forever mean?

Answer: You might answer something like "eternal" - "without a beginning or an end" for example.


Now answer this question: What does forever AND ever mean?

Here's the only possible answer according to your logic. An eternity + an eternity - something that has no beginning and an end + well....something that has no beginning or an end!

Well there's NO SUCH THING! Now can you see why the Greek is right - "age of the ages" - an age out of a succession of ages ie. an age of chastisement followed by an age of correction. OF, OF, OF. It's not AND!

I've tried and failed and failed again on these threads to quote Biblical Language scholars who say the same thing. No-one believes them.

2+2 = 5?

If and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true


The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)

The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)

God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)

God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)

God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)

God is not immortal, God eventually dies.
(contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

VERSE LIST
1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (his servants---Rev. 22:3) shall reign for ever[aion] and ever[aion].
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible(1 Cor. 15:52), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[aion].
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever[aion]. Amen.
Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,..."
1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever[aion].
Matthew 6:13 "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever[aion]. Amen."
John 12:34 "...that Christ abideth for ever[aion]:..."
John 14:16 "...the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever[aion];..."
Romans 1:23 "...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God..."
Romans 1:25 "...the Creator, who is blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 9:5 "... Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 16:27 "To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever[aion]..."
2Corinthians 9:9 "...his righteousness remaineth for ever[aion]."
Galatians 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

 

[dollarsbill]

You CANT have a LONG eternity!!!

I can't think of anything longer.

 

[JPD]

If and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true


The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)

The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)

God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)

God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)

God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)

God is not immortal, God eventually dies.
(contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

VERSE LIST
1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (his servants---Rev. 22:3) shall reign for ever[aion] and ever[aion].
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible(1 Cor. 15:52), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[aion].
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever[aion]. Amen.
Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,..."
1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever[aion].
Matthew 6:13 "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever[aion]. Amen."
John 12:34 "...that Christ abideth for ever[aion]:..."
John 14:16 "...the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever[aion];..."
Romans 1:23 "...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God..."
Romans 1:25 "...the Creator, who is blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 9:5 "... Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 16:27 "To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever[aion]..."
2Corinthians 9:9 "...his righteousness remaineth for ever[aion]."
Galatians 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

Lol! None of these contradict! You've just gotta read it the way that the Greek or Hebrew reads it!

 

[JPD]

I can't think of anything longer.

That's hilarious! I needed a good laugh.

 

[createdtoworship]

Lol! None of these contradict! You've just gotta read it the way that the Greek or Hebrew reads it!

that is the way it reads, God is only temporary if your definition is true. Your just unreasonable. Can't you admit your defeat, aion means BOTH eternal and temporary. Not just temporary, then you would be just fine.

 

[dollarsbill]

That's hilarious! I needed a good laugh.

What's longer that eternity or "forever"? Nothing.

 

[JPD]

that is the way it reads, God is only temporary if your definition is true. Your just unreasonable. Can't you admit your defeat, aion means BOTH eternal and temporary. Not just temporary, then you would be just fine.

No. It's the way you are reading the POOR English translation that is causing you confusion. If you read these verses according to the Greek usage. They don't say God is "temporary" at all. The Greek states that God endures through ALL of these ages. Through ages past and future ages.

You can have a succession of Ages - you CANT have a succession of ETERNITIES. - Hence "Forever" + an other "ever" is incongruous.

Age OF the ages makes sense.

You may think I'm being unreasonable. I'm actually trying to help you read the Bible texts in the ancient language it was written in. I'm here to learn off others the same way you are. It's good to prove your beliefs against solid scrutiny. That's whats great about these debates

 

[dollarsbill]

No. It's the way you are reading the POOR English translation that is causing you confusion.

I think the confusion is on your end.

 

[JPD]

I think the confusion is on your end.

I'm not confused by the scriptures at all anymore. I used to be. There was no end to the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible. They make perfect sense to me now though, especially now that I understand Gods purposes for the "ages." It's no wonder God's Word refers to Himself as being "God of the ages" and not "God of the eternities (plural?)

 

[dollarsbill]

There was no end to the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible.

Hmmm.

 

[JPD]

Hmmm.

Hmmmmm....2+2 still doesn't = 5. Neither does "eternity" + "eternity" = multiple "eternities." Lol!

 

[dollarsbill]

Hmmmmm....2+2 still doesn't = 5. Neither does "eternity" + "eternity" = multiple "eternities." Lol!

Rev 20:10 Forever is forever.

 

[createdtoworship]

No. It's the way you are reading the POOR English translation that is causing you confusion. If you read these verses according to the Greek usage. They don't say God is "temporary" at all. The Greek states that God endures through ALL of these ages. Through ages past and future ages.

You can have a succession of Ages - you CANT have a succession of ETERNITIES. - Hence "Forever" + an other "ever" is incongruous.

Age OF the ages makes sense.

You may think I'm being unreasonable. I'm actually trying to help you read the Bible texts in the ancient language it was written in. I'm here to learn off others the same way you are. It's good to prove your beliefs against solid scrutiny. That's whats great about these debates

but the greek doesn't say ages of ages, it just says ages in relation to God eternity. You didn't read the verses did you?