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Rev 20:10 Forever is forever.
Actually what you are saying is that the people that made all those "poor" English translations are idiots compared to you.No. It's the way you are reading the POOR English translation that is causing you confusion. If you read these verses according to the Greek usage. They don't say God is "temporary" at all. The Greek states that God endures through ALL of these ages. Through ages past and future ages.
You can have a succession of Ages - you CANT have a succession of ETERNITIES. - Hence "Forever" + an other "ever" is incongruous.
Age OF the ages makes sense.
You may think I'm being unreasonable. I'm actually trying to help you read the Bible texts in the ancient language it was written in. I'm here to learn off others the same way you are. It's good to prove your beliefs against solid scrutiny. That's whats great about these debates
Should we believe YOUR personal translation or most of our English translations that prove you are wrong?Nope. The Devil is tormented for one "age" of punishment from all the other "ages" that follow it. He isn't tormented in one "forever" and then plucked out and put into an other "forever" remember the Greek "OF" It's NOT "and" as the English erroneously states.
Actually what you are saying is that the people that made all those "poor" English translations are idiots compared to you.
Actually what you are saying is that the people that made all those "poor" English translations are idiots compared to you.
So what are your credentials to prove our English Bibles are wrong? Do you have any?Not at all. All translators were/are very learned men indeed! They did the best they could with what they had. Unfortunately translators through the centuries were prone to accepting the ecclesiastical bias' of the day. A very good example of this is Justinians decree that "the life of the saints was to be everlasting, and that the doom of the lost was to be likewise." That will keep the Masses obedient now huh!
"The holy church of Christ teaches an unendable eonian (ateleutEtos aiOnios) life for the righteous, and unendable (ateleutEtos) punishment for the wicked."
Thus, we teach it today in our Churches. Not because it's scriptural , but because its a lie that has continued to be promulgated through the centuries.
By the time the KJV was printed in 1611, this doctrine became entrenched into the church psyche. Furthermore, almost all of our modern translations are based off the KJV. Hence they continue the error.
The Latin is a poor cousin indeed to the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures.
and if someone quotes from a bible not based on the KJV and you disagree then what?Not at all. All translators were/are very learned men indeed! They did the best they could with what they had. Unfortunately translators through the centuries were prone to accepting the ecclesiastical bias' of the day. A very good example of this is Justinians decree that "the life of the saints was to be everlasting, and that the doom of the lost was to be likewise." That will keep the Masses obedient now huh!
"The holy church of Christ teaches an unendable eonian (ateleutEtos aiOnios) life for the righteous, and unendable (ateleutEtos) punishment for the wicked."
Thus, we teach it today in our Churches. Not because it's scriptural , but because its a lie that has continued to be promulgated through the centuries.
By the time the KJV was printed in 1611, this doctrine became entrenched into the church psyche. Furthermore, almost all of our modern translations are based off the KJV. Hence they continue the error.
The Latin is a poor cousin indeed to the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures.
The problem is not that hard to solve. They have Christians in Greece also. Greek Christians steadfastly refuse to use English bibles, no matter how well they speak English.
Go to an English speaking Greek Christian board and ask them. They swear our translations change the entire religion.
early church believed in Hell and Justin Mayrtr who had studied greek believed in eternal hell too...The problem is not that hard to solve. They have Christians in Greece also. Greek Christians steadfastly refuse to use English bibles, no matter how well they speak English.
Go to an English speaking Greek Christian board and ask them. They swear our translations change the entire religion.
Why would I take any of your words for what the orthodox believe from sites such at tentmakers etc? I can ask orthodox greeks here in the forum about hell and get an answer. Wiki says eastern orthodox believeIf anyone wants to read a good article on the subject of "eternity" - as far as the orthodox Bible cannon teaches it - check out this study.
Eternal Consequences article
It answers a lot of the questions that we continue to disagree over in these threads. You may not agree with it all - but it goes a long way in providing the reason why some of us on this forum take issue with the doctrine of "eternal punishment." You don't have to of course - I dare say, most here would consider it an exercise in futility! But anyway...
If anyone wants to read a good article on the subject of "eternity" - as far as the orthodox Bible cannon teaches it - check out this study.
Eternal Consequences article
It answers a lot of the questions that we continue to disagree over in these threads. You may not agree with it all - but it goes a long way in providing the reason why some of us on this forum take issue with the doctrine of "eternal punishment." You don't have to of course - I dare say, most here would consider it an exercise in futility! But anyway...
The noun AION nowhere means eternal. Its simple meaning is an age. In its plural form it means ages.
I guess he never read Ecclesiastes."We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one...or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated." Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians Chapter 31
He repented of the catholic Heresy and became a Montanist.Tertullian seems to have been responding to Jesus' words, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him" (Luke 12:4b, 5 NASB), when that "Father" wrote:
It's not a case of "hating" the rich. To be "born again" is to have ones eyes opened to all of the suffering in the world.
Notice the context in which this much used and abused saying is used. No one can be "born again" in the context used in Matthew and hang on to their excess wealth, their conscience just wouldn't let them.
The supposed predecessor to the "Gospel of Mathew", the "Gospel to the Hebrews" has Jesus finishing to the effect that "so much has flowed into your house, and nothing has flowed out of it".
I guess he never read Ecclesiastes.
He repented of the catholic Heresy and became a Montanist.
The problem with all of these notions of an eternal torture, is that it makes God less than man.
Montanist didn't use scriptures or leave writings. They were a gnostic visionary sect---the lack of written material cut down on the arguments I guess.montanists didn't reject eternal hell, just more people went there apparently because of their legalistic views.
It is those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who are not allowed to see the face of God forever, but are forever destroyed.but just because your dead doesn't mean you cease to exist. In the "darkness" you still exist. when you are "uprooted" and moved you still exist. My car was destroyed at the junkyard but it still exists. Got any more verses to share?
yeah what kind of man would torture someone forever? and God is way better than men. ~sigh~
is is really so hard to believe that people don't know what the heck God means when he talks about hell? I would rather be a fool and not understand than to think i know and make God look like some kind of monster worse than satan himself or as satan. yeah i'm not slandering God, you people who say He tortures people forever are the ones slandering God and I want it to stop! and the ones that say God would be so weak to give up and erase His creatures, now that is a slander to the character of God! it really really bothers me to no end hearing such things. is no one else bothered that people believe God is something less than men are!?!?
I guess it is true that most men are trapped in a labyrinth of their own beliefs ( i wish to escape all such things ). is it hard to think that you are the same kinds of people that try to stone people with stones when someone sins? and yet Jesus Christ never told anyone to stone anybody. perhaps some people don't understand what God wants? how could God tell people to stone people and then Jesus come to the earth and not stone people? maybe it is because the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. if you read moses according to the letter, then yes you will think God wants to kill people. if you read moses according to the unity of the Spirit you will see that God never asked for such insanity! and I believe that this is the same for most peoples beliefs of the hell they believe in.
Oh, how I hate religion! how many men has it slain? how many times has it slandered God? wicked pits, wicked doctrines and still they want to believe God is some horrible God of vengeance rather than a God who heals and saves and who is the Father of us all. they stumble over the words of God all day long. if only you would see the unity and depths of the scriptures! then you would believe that God has much more mercy and love than men do.
Noxot is perfectly reasonable. It was the religious that Jesus called snakes and vipers. Paul said that "even to this day" which I guess could possibly mean even to this day "whenever Moses is read, a veil is over their faces". Apologist write that he was referring to the Jewish religion, in keeping with catholicism. However, if we look closely, he was writing not against the Jewish religion, but those Jewish Christians who could not let go of the Prophets. We see that even today, people get upset when the Ten commandments are taken down in federal buildings. However, as a Christian, I believe we should be more alarmed, and even ashamed, that they were ever placed there instead of the beatitudes.Hi. Very well said, and you say what so many are saying right now. It is indeed hard to believe all of these things about God. I don't want you to be upset about what I'm going to say, but just think about it. God is Love. John says so and the Bible attests to it all the way through. It is his nature. It's who He is from cover to cover. If you want proof of it in the OT read Jeremiah 18: 1-6. It is so awesome that, as His people, we are in His hand and he is shaping us. We can never be lost when we stay with Him.
Now some bad news (not for us, but for those that do't know God) - God is also righteous. This is also His nature and He also shows this from cover to cover and we can't get around it.
I'm going to suggest a book for you to read that addresses these concerns you have called "Erasing Hell" by Francis Chan. Francis struggled with the same things you do and eventually had to come to terms with a LOT of things. He didn't like it, and I don't like it either. But certain things about God and His nature are true. Just consider some of these things.
Peace.
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