Let's Talk About Hell (6)

apostolic34 said:

This is interesting. a few posts ago you mentioned that the bible does not support annihilation of the soul, then you present all of these definitions of hell that include "a place of eternal fire" and "the abode of the wicked". If it is not the soul of the wicked that will be abiding there (be it for a minute or forever, take your pick), what 'part' of the wicked WILL be abiding there (i.e. body, spirit, mind, some other energy)? :/

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it does not support annihilation of the soul, it supports eternal damnation.

annihilation means the soul is unconscious

he-man said:

Huh? Greek 101 ξεριζώνω eradicate, uproot, extirpate

These are hidden rocky reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you, shepherds who without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; ἐκριζωθέντα Jude 1:12

But he answered, “Every plant which my heavenly Father didn’t plant will be uprooted. ἐκριζωθήσεται Mt 15:13

uprooting Hmmmnn...lets see now
uprooting extraction (as of a plant and its roots from the ground); complete eradication

uproot pull a plant and its roots out of the ground; extirpate destroy, eradicate; uproot, root something out completely; WEED OUT, destroy, stamp out, root out, wipe out, eliminate, suppress, crush, put down, put an end to, get rid of.
© Oxford University Press 1995, 2002

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as far as I know oxford doesn't put out a greek dictionary. So how is that greek 101? You stole a word from my greek definition "uprooted" then you define it with an english dictionary. Isn't that back-peddling? I mean define greek words with greek dictionaries, not greek with english. Does that make any sense? But sophrosyne is right, even if you DID define it with greek. Uprooting does not mean the plant ceases to exist. Even if uprooted for eternity.

gradyll said:

as far as I know oxford doesn't put out a greek dictionary. So how is that greek 101? You stole a word from my greek definition "uprooted" then you define it with an english dictionary. Isn't that back-peddling? I mean define greek words with greek dictionaries, not greek with english. Does that make any sense? But sophrosyne is right, even if you DID define it with greek. Uprooting does not mean the plant ceases to exist. Even if uprooted for eternity.

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It isn't math where if A=B and B=C then A=C, it is A is like B and B is like C so C must be A. If you take yellow and slowly add red to it and only compare the color to the previously added to color and not the original yellow you could end up with orange and say... see this is yellow.

Sophrosyne said:

It isn't math where if A=B and B=C then A=C, it is A is like B and B is like C so C must be A. If you take yellow and slowly add red to it and only compare the color to the previously added to color and not the original yellow you could end up with orange and say... see this is yellow.

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exactly!

gradyll said:

as far as I know oxford doesn't put out a greek dictionary.

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I'm looking at the title page of my greek lexicon (a fancy word for dictionary).
Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon is Published by Oxford Press.
I have the 27th edition, it says this on the bottom of the title page:

Timothew said:

I'm looking at the title page of my greek lexicon (a fancy word for dictionary).
Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon is Published by Oxford Press.
I have the 27th edition, it says this on the bottom of the title page:

Oxford
AT THE CLARENDON PRESS:
HENRY PROWDE
OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS WAREHOUSE, AMEN CORNER
LONGMANS, GREEN, AND CO.
39, PATERNASTER ROW
London
1899
​

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maybe you should give one to he-man...

lol

gradyll said:

maybe you should give one to he-man...

lol

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We've been (He-man and me) studying the NT in greek for a long time now. Here is the link http://www.christianforums.com/t7438795-45/#post60154912

Come and join us, and let's leave off studying hell for a while.

Timothew said:

We've been (He-man and me) studying the NT in greek for a long time now. Here is the link http://www.christianforums.com/t7438795-45/#post60154912

Come and join us, and let's leave off studying hell for a while.

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I don't mind greek studies but He-man has a tendency of how do you say....

adding one definition for another where it suits his fancy.

why He likes weymouths translations.

Not criticizing just saying.

From what I've seen, He-man has good ideas. He has a sharp mind and I would hesitate to disagree with him, although I have occasionally. I would have to be really sure that I am right if I disagree with him.

Hey Tim; I see you are tagged as "sick" and I just want to wish you well, and hope you feel better.

Soulgazer said:

Hey Tim; I see you are tagged as "sick" and I just want to wish you well, and hope you feel better.

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Thanks, I have a cold and minor depression. I was out riding friday when I shouldn't have been. Now I have to miss playing guitar in church. It's kind of a "hymn" day, so they should be okay without me. I really hate to miss church though. I might pop in for the second service so I don't miss the pastor's sermon.

Timothew said:

From what I've seen, He-man has good ideas. He has a sharp mind and I would hesitate to disagree with him, although I have occasionally. I would have to be really sure that I am right if I disagree with him.

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well He not only refuses to believe in eternal hell, he also states that satan and demons do not exist....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7596146-93/#post58705289

and uses a special translating effort to confirm how demon possession was the equivelent of epilepsy.

gradyll said:

maybe you should give one to he-man...

lol

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Thanks, but I have one. I also have "The Greek New Testament", Fourth Revised Edition, with Dictionary 2007 United Bible Societies, USA; Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft. D-Stuttgart, 13th Priniting
in cooperation with "Institute for New Testament Textual Research"

Not to mention the following hard copies:
A Full Collection of Codex Sinaiticus, by Scrivener
Beza's Novum Testamentum 1565
Novum Testamentum Vaticanum, C Tischendorf
New Testament in the Original Greek by Westcott and Hort
Codex Alexandrinus
1516 Greek & Latin New Testament, Desiderius Erasmus
Codex Sinaiticus Facsimile

Not to mention all the Hard Copies ofcommentaries, Halley's, Moody's, EErdman's, Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich, and numerous Dictionaries; Word Study Greek-English New Testament, McReynolds; A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, Bercot; Diessmann's Bible Studies, and Divry's English-Greek Greek-English Dictionary.

he-man said:

Thanks, but I have one. I also have "The Greek New Testament", Fourth Revised Edition, with Dictionary 2007 United Bible Societies, USA; Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft. D-Stuttgart, 13th Priniting
in cooperation with "Institute for New Testament Textual Research"

Not to mention the following hard copies:
A Full Collection of Codex Sinaiticus, by Scrivener
Beza's Novum Testamentum 1565
Novum Testamentum Vaticanum, C Tischendorf
New Testament in the Original Greek by Westcott and Hort
Codex Alexandrinus
1516 Greek & Latin New Testament, Desiderius Erasmus
Codex Sinaiticus Facsimile

Not to mention all the Hard Copies ofcommentaries, Halley's, Moody's, EErdman's, Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich, and numerous Dictionaries; Word Study Greek-English New Testament, McReynolds; A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, Bercot; Diessmann's Bible Studies, and Divry's English-Greek Greek-English Dictionary.

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I have these on software, but don't really use them:

Latin Vulgate Translation

Greek (Modern) Translation 4.84 MB

Greek In A Nutshell 0.12 MB

Greek New Testament (Scrivener 1894) 1.12 MB

Greek New Testament (Stephanos 1550) 1.12 MB

Greek New Testament (Wescott-Hort) 1.16 MB

Greek New Testament Insert 0.34 MB

The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (Interlinear with Morphology) 19.14 MB

The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (with Morphology) 11.57 MB

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature 21.59 MB

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains



I use about three of four greek dictionaries and a few lexicons, the rest of my 2000 books basically sit.

The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ezk. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).

The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1

Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.

There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24).

Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

Is "forever and ever" without end?

The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

forever and ever

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"

Eternal - without end Eternal Damnation
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).

". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great harlot of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is aionas aionon which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.
Unquenchable Fire

Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.

Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)

Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." The word "unquenchable" is asbestos in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."

The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is asbestos in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.

"unquenchable, inextinguishable"2
"not quenched"3
"pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable."4
"unquenched, unquenchable"5
"that cannot be put out"6
"inextinguishable"7

Is hell eternal? Yes it is. Are its fires without end? Yes they are. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really. But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8)

from carm.org

http://carm.org/hell-eternal

Oh man! CARM is the LAST place you want to prove "eternal Punishment!"

forever and ever
aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"

The Greek is not "and," it is "of." It's in the genitive case. "Of" contrasts one thing with another. It does not "add" one thing to another. This is a big difference.

There's no such thing as Forever of ever????

"Age of the ages" does employ "OF" though. Funny that.

You "eternal Hell'ers just wont listen to the real scholars will you?

JPD said:

Oh man! CARM is the LAST place you want to prove "eternal Punishment!"

forever and ever
aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"

The Greek is not "and," it is "of." It's in the genitive case. "Of" contrasts one thing with another. It does not "add" one thing to another. This is a big difference.

There's no such thing as Forever of ever????

"Age of the ages" does employ "OF" though. Funny that.

You "eternal Hell'ers just wont listen to the real scholars will you?

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aion can be used both of eternal and temporary, so how do you know if the temporary is only speaking of Hell?

gradyll said:

The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about. Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46).

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Yes, and I would not have you to be ignorant brethren, for our God is a consuming fire and He is eternal which means His fire is unquenchable or as άσβεστος asbestos inextinguishable.

The eternal chastisement is to never see the face of God again, that is, the unquenchable fire, which is annhiliation, for all eternity, as "total destruction" or "complete obliteration"; having its root in the Latin nihil (nothing). A literal translation is "to make into nothing".

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:8,9

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are dead, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which died through Jesus will God bring with him

he-man said:

Yes, and I would not have you to be ignorant brethren, for our God is a consuming fire and He is eternal which means His fire is unquenchable or as άσβεστος asbestos inextinguishable.

The eternal chastisement is to never see the face of God again, that is, the unquenchable fire, which is annhiliation, for all eternity, as "total destruction" or "complete obliteration"; having its root in the Latin nihil (nothing). A literal translation is "to make into nothing".

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:8,9

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are dead, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which died through Jesus will God bring with him

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your assuming every single fire in the Bible, is at the same time, and at the same place. Unlikely. Just because God uses the term "fire" to describe His presence doesn't mean that the fire of Hell are just imaginative. ANd it doesn't mean that the fire of hell are exactly the same fire as God's glory. Scripture please?

JPD said:

You "eternal Hell'ers just wont listen to the real scholars will you?

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Sure we do.

Revelation 20:10 (ESV)
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (ASV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (NIV)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (BBE)
10 And the Evil One who put them in error was sent down into the sea of ever-burning fire, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their punishment will go on day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (NLT)
10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (NRSV)
10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (TLB)
10 Then the devil who had betrayed them will again be thrown into the Lake of Fire burning with sulphur where the Creature and False Prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (GW)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (MaceNT)
10 the devil that seduced them, shall be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB77)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 (WesleyNT)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where both the wild beast and the false prophet are: and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

International Standard Version (©2008)
and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And their Seducer, The Devil, was cast into The Lake of Fire and Brimstone where The Beast and The False Prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night for the eternity of eternities.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

American King James Version
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

English Revised Version
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

World English Bible
The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.