Ummm YES
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil
the evil one is the "Destroying Angel"
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so why was samuel conjured up at all? If it was merely demonic and God was not involved what so ever? Does Satan have power over death?
Ummm YES
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of deaththat is, the devil
the evil one is the "Destroying Angel"
Satan can't raise the dead, most accept it figuratively as the roman empireyou know the verse, but ask the question? what else do you do this with.....or do you just ignore the verse?
"Samuel" wasnt "Resurrected" lol
^that (resurrection) only happens at the end of age
IF the evil one can call fire down from heaven
and if the evil one can breathe the breath of Life into an inanimate object
Then i wouldnt put it past him, ala God allowing it.....
It seems my friend grady, that you underestimate the second most powerful being in the universe....
Behind the Father/Christ of course.......
Be careful that you arent deceived........stop thinking you, a mere mortal human, know how deep the wiles of the evil one goes
And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
so why was samuel conjured up at all? If it was merely demonic and God was not involved what so ever? Does Satan have power over death?
1 Chr 21:1 "the adversary" as shown by 2Sam 24:1Agreed - Satan can not raise the dead -- but he can mimic them as in the case of the familiar spirit of the witch in 1Samuel 28 -- trying to fool the witch and her "client" into the claims of the seance in "conjuring up for me whomever I ask".
If you believe the Bible then it was Samuel that spoke to Saul. Nowhere does the Bible suggest otherwise. You are brain washed, Bob.If you believe the Bible then the familiar spirits pretending to be the dead saints - are just lying.
Mediums do not work by either the power of God or the power of Satan, mediums work because the dead can still be contacted. Nothing more and nothing less. It is forbidden because it is an extremely unhealthy practice for the living, and as Samuel says, the dead do not want to be disturbed.You keep on insisting that the witch does not work via a familiar spirit - but rather via God or via Samuel.
1 Chr 21:1 "the adversary" as shown by 2Sam 24:1
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. ...
2 Cor 12:7
Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger Satan/adversary, to smack me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Bob, your idea that when the Bible says, "Samuel said" that the Bible is in fact lying
Mediums do not work by either the power of God or the power of Satan, mediums work because the dead can still be contacted. Nothing more and nothing less.
Those are metaphors. When the Bible says, "Samuel said" it is clearly not a metaphor. Your argument makes no sense here.When the Bible says in Judges 9:8 that the "vine said" and "the bramble said" I don't think the Bible is lying - but it is interpreted in context.
Only very old Bibles use the phrase familiar spirits. If you look in Bibles these days you won't find the phrase "familiar spirit" anywhere. Modern Bibles all say "medium".In the OT witches are said to work via their familiar spirits - that is not a lie
Why does she throw herself down in fear when she sees Samuel? Is she afraid because she sees an old familiar demon that she has seen many times before? No, she is afraid because she sees, "elohiym". Elohiym generally means God or angels, but in this case it means the spirit of a saint. That is the only context in which the witch's fear makes any sense. It does not make any sense that she would be afraid of a demon if demons are all that she ever brought up.no not even in 1Samuel 28 where at no point does God say that He came in to "assist the witch" in her claim to "conjure up " any dead saint one might wish to visit with.
It is only confusing if you change the definitions of basic words, such that "Samuel said" really means "a demon said". Funny how the Bible gets confused and says saint when it really ment demon?I realize this point is "supposed" to be confusing to someone - but really it is not at all confusing if you pay attention to the details.
It says that an elohiym was brought up, elohiym means God.Had this been a real prophet - then as in all of scripture - to inquire of God's prophet is to "inquire of God".
Seven eighths of Christians believe in an afterlife, so your statement here is false. MOST Christians do believe in something beyond mere material existence. Now if you are talking about most ATHEISTS, then you would have a point.It is just not that difficult for most Christians to understand that a seance is NOT an example of real communication with dead saints that mediums have the power to "conjure up on command".
Does the fact that I can talk to you mean that I have "power over" you? Clearly not. Your use of canned phrases like this is a clear sign of brain washing. If the English language has to be redefined in order to make your point then you are making a very weak case.The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.
It it not the witch you are calling a liar, it is the Bible. The witch is not making any argument to be agreed with or disagreed with. It is the Bible that states that Samuel speaks, not the witch.Apparently - some people actually agree with the witch.
No modern translation of the Bible still uses the term "familiar spirit". Your reliance on antiquated language that has not been in common usage for hundreds of years in the English language makes it clear that you are not think for yourself, you are brain washed.Turns out that God condemns the witches and their familiar spirits that engage in this deception.
Consulting with mediums is spiritually unhealthy, this the Bible confirms, but nowhere, not once, does the Bible say that the real "truth" is that true mediumship is impossible. It is dangerous precisely because it is possible. If what you are saying is true then the Bible would clearly state that mediumship is not real and that attempting it is dangerous because it calls up demons. Instead the Bible makes it very clear that mediumship is real.Saul made inquiry of the "familiar spirit" according to the Bible - instead of inquiring of God.
No modern Bible uses the term "familiar spirit". It is a centuries antiquated mistranslation that is decieving you. The witch of Endor was sought out because she was a medium.And the witch of Endore was sought out BECAUSE of her "familiar spirit" according to scripture. Surely scripture is not "lying"??!!
It is not the witch that you are accusing of lying, it is the Bible. It is not a question of whether or not you believe the witch, it is a question of whether or not you believe the Bible.Those who buy into the Genesis 3 story from Satan about humans not dying - will sometimes buy into the story told by witches - where they claim they have power to "conjure up" via their familiar spirits - anyone that you might wish among the dead.
Does the fact that I can talk to you mean that I have "power over" you?
The witch claims to be able to conjure up any dead saint you wish to speak to.It it not the witch you are calling a liar, it is the Bible. The witch is not making any argument to be agreed with
Sadly for your argument that changes nothing. And even worse - it is not even true.No modern translation of the Bible still uses the term "familiar spirit".
Dear Bob you have been grossly misled:In Christianity there is Satan - the Devil of Matt 4 and of Rev 12. He has angels - they were at war in heaven and were cast out.Even in the OT you have Satan appearing in councils of heaven in Job 1 and 2. God is real in Job 1 and 2, Satan is real, the earth is real, and Job was real. I suggest that your subject of "is the devil real" be it's own thread. It is a topic that deserves focused attention.
in Christ, Bob
The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.
Many Christians suspect that is a lie and that God gives witches no such power over dead saints.
Apparently - some people actually agree with the witch.
In any case - be that as it may -
Turns out that God condemns the witches and their familiar spirits that engage in this deception.
Saul made inquiry of the "familiar spirit" according to the Bible - instead of inquiring of God.
"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;"
And the witch of Endore was sought out BECAUSE of her "familiar spirit" according to scripture. Surely scripture is not "lying"??!!
- Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.- 1 Samuel 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.- 1 Samuel 28:8
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.- 1 Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;- 2 Chronicles 33:6
And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.- Isaiah 29:4
And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
Those who buy into the Genesis 3 story from Satan about humans not dying - will sometimes buy into the story told by witches - where they claim they have power to "conjure up" via their familiar spirits - anyone that you might wish among the dead.
in Christ,
Bob
The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.
Did you need to "Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'?? to do it?? That should be the first clue as to the difference.
Saul goes to the witch - because he cannot reach the dead - nor can he conjure up the dead.
Seeks someone with a "familiar spirit" -- you know, a lying spirit that is able to provide the much needed deception.
If Saul could simply conjure up Samuel -- why go to a witch?
Why deliberately seek someone with a "Familiar Spirit".
Martin Luther claimed that such teaching about immortal souls in eternal torment etc was false doctrine brought in by those in error in the dark ages.
The witch claims to be able to conjure up any dead saint you wish to speak to.
The witch is selected precisely because she has the much needed familiar spirit - so necessary to such claims.
The Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:4.
The Bible says that when a person dies "in that very day their thoughts perish" Ps 146:4.
The Bible says that you cannot "consult the dead on behalf of the living" Isaiah 8:19-20.
The Bible says that in death - the person sleeps "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I do that I may wake HIM". John 11.
When Christ's awakens the sleeping saint - it is not a seance via familiar spirit - but it is resurrection.
Notice that even in Luke 16's parable the same point is made that the dead cannot go to the living and in any way warn or contact them apart from resurrection.
Sadly for your argument that changes nothing. And even worse - it is not even true.
Ever read Young's Literal Translation??
- Leviticus 20:27
`And a man or woman -- when there is in them a familiar spirit, or who [are] wizards -- are certainly put to death; with stones they stone them; their blood [is] on them.'- 1 Samuel 28:7
And Saul saith to his servants, `Seek for me a woman possessing a familiar spirit, and I go unto her, and inquire of her;' and his servants say unto him, `Lo, a woman possessing a familiar spirit in En-dor.'- 1 Samuel 28:8
And Saul disguiseth himself and putteth on other garments, and goeth, he and two of the men with him, and they come in unto the woman by night, and he saith, `Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'- 2 Kings 21:6
and he hath caused his son to pass through fire, and observed clouds, and used enchantment, and dealt with a familiar spirit and wizards; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah -- to provoke to anger.- 1 Chronicles 10:13
And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, --- 2 Chronicles 33:6
And he hath caused his sons to pass over through fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and observed clouds and used enchantments and witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and a wizard; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger.- Isaiah 29:4
And thou hast been low, From the earth thou speakest, And from the dust makest thy saying low, And thy voice hath been from the earth, As one having a familiar spirit, And from the dust thy saying whisperest,
Notice that often when dealing with those who believe in such Genesis 3 doctrines as "thou shalt not surely die" one must explain that familiar spirits tell lies and those using them to deceive mankind should not be appealed to as a source of doctrine.
Exposing the darkness of witchcraft and familiar spirits just does not get any more blatant than this friends. Time to wake up. Satan's enchanted ground is not a place to camp out.
in Christ,
Bob
To "have power over" someone you must be able to force them to do something against their will. Nowhere does the Bible use such terminology to describe mediums.The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.
Familiar spirits are a recent belief that did not exist before the Middle Ages and was a belief peculiar to Britian and France.Did you need to "Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'?? to do it?? That should be the first clue as to the difference.
Seeks someone with a "familiar spirit" -- you know, a lying spirit that is able to provide the much needed deception.
He wasn't a medium.If Saul could simply conjure up Samuel -- why go to a witch?
Luther only espoused belief in soul sleep early on. He later renounced it, claiming, “The soul does not sleep but is awake and enjoys the vision of angels and of God, and has converse with them." -Luther's "Commentary on Genesis"Martin Luther claimed that such teaching about immortal souls in eternal torment etc was false doctrine brought in by those in error in the dark ages.
Then why did she throw herself to the ground in fear when a saint came up?The witch claims to be able to conjure up any dead saint you wish to speak to.
I've never once heard of any contemporary medium making use of any kind of intermediary spirit. I've heard a lot of people talk about spirit guides, but I have never seen anyone besides you connect spirit guides with mediumship.The witch is selected precisely because she has the much needed familiar spirit - so necessary to such claims.
The Amplified Bible does the best job of capturing all the symantic subtleties:The Bible says that when a person dies "in that very day their thoughts perish" Ps 146:4.
"Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?"The Bible says that you cannot "consult the dead on behalf of the living" Isaiah 8:19-20.
Sleep is an altered state of consciousness, not the cessation of consciousness.The Bible says that in death - the person sleeps "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I do that I may wake HIM". John 11.
Thank you, master of the obvious.When Christ's awakens the sleeping saint - it is not a seance via familiar spirit - but it is resurrection.
"neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if someone should rise from the dead."Notice that even in Luke 16's parable the same point is made that the dead cannot go to the living and in any way warn or contact them apart from resurrection.
How is the YLT a modern translation? Robert Young wrote it in 1862.Sadly for your argument that changes nothing. And even worse - it is not even true.
Ever read Young's Literal Translation??
No one here is using mediums as a source of doctrine.Notice that often when dealing with those who believe in such Genesis 3 doctrines as "thou shalt not surely die" one must explain that familiar spirits tell lies and those using them to deceive mankind should not be appealed to as a source of doctrine.
Being a medium is spiritually extremely unhealthy, I have nothing to wake up from. You act as though you are arguing with people who condone mediumship. The fact that it has nothing to do with "familiar spirits" which was a brief spasm of superstition limited to Medieval Britian and France, is in no way a defense of mediums.Exposing the darkness of witchcraft and familiar spirits just does not get any more blatant than this friends. Time to wake up. Satan's enchanted ground is not a place to camp out.
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