Let's say all gays and lesbians became straight overnight, tonight.

Which group would become the "designated sinner" if all gays became straight tonight?

  • Women in any position of authority (political, economic, religious)

  • Companies which make contraceptives

  • People who use contraceptives of any kind

  • Liberals (liberal Christians, liberals, Democrats)

  • Non-Christians (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, etc.)

  • Atheists

  • So many people, so little time!

  • Other -- please post.


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davedjy

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Hate to be rude, but that's not what I was asking. I was asking you to prove your statement I quoted, and you've yet to do it. You've yet to give me a decent argument. And you're ignoring Genesis 2:23-24 where it does talk about marital relationships.
yeah, and where does it say that a man cannot marry a man? I already answered your question, but you don't like my answer. Sorry, but historical context proves you wrong! Slavery and mistreatment of women in the Bible, it is a Book Choc full of historical context!
 
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CShephard53

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Sorry, but historical context proves you wrong! Slavery and mistreatment of women in the Bible, it is a Book Choc full of historical context!
What historical context? And you still haven't proven your other statement... I'm going to assume at this point that you cannot.
 
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Der Alte

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yeah, and where does it say that a man cannot marry a man? I already answered your question, but you don't like my answer. Sorry, but historical context proves you wrong! Slavery and mistreatment of women in the Bible, it is a Book Choc full of historical context!

It has already been said but I will repeat it. You have NO, ZERO, NONE historical. Historical context is NOT "This guy said that." That guy said that.", "This guy did this." "That guy did that."

This is what historical evidence looks like.
Merneptah Stele

Merneptah pylon at University of Penn Museum

One of the most important discoveries that relate to the time of the Exodus is the Merneptah stele which dates to about 1210 BC. Merneptah, the king of Egypt, boasts that he has destroyed his enemies in Canaan. He states: Plundered is the Canaan with every evil; Carried off is Ashkelon; seized upon is Gezer; Yanoam is made as that which does not exist; Israel is laid waste, his seed is not; (ANET 1969, 378).The word "Israel" here is written in Egyptian with the determinative for people rather than land (ANET 1969, 378 note 18).

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm
 
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davedjy

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It has already been said but I will repeat it. You have NO, ZERO, NONE historical. Historical context is NOT "This guy said that." That guy said that.", "This guy did this." "That guy did that."

This is what historical evidence looks like.
Merneptah Stele

Merneptah pylon at University of Penn Museum

One of the most important discoveries that relate to the time of the Exodus is the Merneptah stele which dates to about 1210 BC. Merneptah, the king of Egypt, boasts that he has destroyed his enemies in Canaan. He states: Plundered is the Canaan with every evil; Carried off is Ashkelon; seized upon is Gezer; Yanoam is made as that which does not exist; Israel is laid waste, his seed is not; (ANET 1969, 378).The word "Israel" here is written in Egyptian with the determinative for people rather than land (ANET 1969, 378 note 18).

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm
I provided this link, with proof:


The article cannot be edited by newly registered members:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality
 
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ig3L

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I provided this link, with proof:


The article cannot be edited by newly registered members:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

In all fairness, citing to wikipedia is generally frowned in academic circles because of the fact that there is no single author or group of authors that is responsible for its content. Although I think it's silly to argue that there is a lack of evidence on either side of the issue, if you want to provide solid evidence, other sources would proabably be better than wikipedia (I know they're out there :))
 
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davedjy

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In all fairness, citing to wikipedia is generally frowned in academic circles because of the fact that there is no single author or group of authors that is responsible for its content. Although I think it's silly to argue that there is a lack of evidence on either side of the issue, if you want to provide solid evidence, other sources would proabably be better than wikipedia (I know they're out there :))
Then Google something else.

Of course, you still cannot refute any claims that were made in the Wikipedia article, so your next move is to try to slander the evidence before you.
 
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ig3L

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Then Google something else.

Of course, you still cannot refute any claims that were made in the Wikipedia article, so your next move is to try to slander the evidence before you.

I'm assuming that the point to be refuted is that the Bible does not mention homosexuality in the specific context of a loving monogomous relationship. For the most part, the scriptures do not seem to clearly indicate the context. For example, Romans 1:26-27 seems only to describe the homosexual act itself. It does not say anything about it being within or without a loving monogamous relationship. One reasonable presumption is that, if this were important to Paul, he would have explicitly made that distinction.

Your counterarguement seems to be (without having read the wikipedia article, but having heard this type of argument enough times to guess) that in the context in which Paul was speaking (as well as Moses/God in the OT references), it was understood that he was referrig to pagan ritualistic sexual practices.

I personally find the first argument more convincing, and I think that most Chrisitians agree with me on that.However, I accept that there might be some merit to the context argument. I would say that, if you are going to convince anyone that 2000 years of Christian tradition has got it wrong, the burden is on you to prove tradition wrong, not the other way around. That is why, from an academic perspecitves, I would encourage you to cite to sources that are more objectively verifiable than wikipedia.

I personally think that this is one of those issues in which we are likely to go round and round in circles. You're really not likely to convince anyone, nor am I likely to convince you. As long as you are at peace with your own conscience, whether a specific act is right or wrong is between you, God, and any person affected by your actions. And, while it can be interesting and fun to debate all of this, we should always balance it with grace and love.
 
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davedjy

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I'm assuming that the point to be refuted is that the Bible does not mention homosexuality in the specific context of a loving monogomous relationship. For the most part, the scriptures do not seem to clearly indicate the context. For example, Romans 1:26-27 seems only to describe the homosexual act itself. It does not say anything about it being within or without a loving monogamous relationship. One reasonable presumption is that, if this were important to Paul, he would have explicitly made that distinction.

Your counterarguement seems to be (without having read the wikipedia article, but having heard this type of argument enough times to guess) that in the context in which Paul was speaking (as well as Moses/God in the OT references), it was understood that he was referrig to pagan ritualistic sexual practices.

I personally find the first argument more convincing, and I think that most Chrisitians agree with me on that.However, I accept that there might be some merit to the context argument. I would say that, if you are going to convince anyone that 2000 years of Christian tradition has got it wrong, the burden is on you to prove tradition wrong, not the other way around. That is why, from an academic perspecitves, I would encourage you to cite to sources that are more objectively verifiable than wikipedia.

I personally think that this is one of those issues in which we are likely to go round and round in circles. You're really not likely to convince anyone, nor am I likely to convince you. As long as you are at peace with your own conscience, whether a specific act is right or wrong is between you, God, and any person affected by your actions. And, while it can be interesting and fun to debate all of this, we should always balance it with grace and love.
Paul is talking plural there...did ya see?

He is condemning orgies and pagan worship. It is blatantly obvious.

I have already convinced people...I don't need you to change your opinion, my audience is to gay and bisexual people and to supportive straight Christians!
 
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UberLutheran

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I personally think that this is one of those issues in which we are likely to go round and round in circles. You're really not likely to convince anyone, nor am I likely to convince you. As long as you are at peace with your own conscience, whether a specific act is right or wrong is between you, God, and any person affected by your actions. And, while it can be interesting and fun to debate all of this, we should always balance it with grace and love.

This is one of the most reasonable, humane and truly Christian things I've seen posted in these forums in a long, long time!

:clap: :clap: :clap:
 
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ig3L

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Paul is talking plural there...did ya see?

He is condemning orgies and pagan worship. It is blatantly obvious.

I have already convinced people...I don't need you to change your opinion, my audience is to gay and bisexual people and to supportive straight Christians!

Well, I am glad that you have a clear sense of who your audience is. One thing that I think needs to be said though, is that your argument often seems somewhat disingenuous. For example, I have seen you write more than once, that "it is not even mentioned in the Bible as such" or something very similar to that (excuse me if I paraphrased incorrectly). Other times you seem to clarify somewhat (though not completely) that by "it" you mean monogamous homosexuality. The problem is that such a statement would reasonably lead one to believe that you are saying that homosexuality is not mentioned, or condemned in the Bible. This statement, if it were what you meant, would be easily refuted by quoting scripture. A perhaps more intellectually honest way to approach this issue would be to say that "while homosexual acts are mentioned in several places in the Bible in an apparently condemning way, many reputable scholars believe that these passages instead condemn homosexual orgies and/or sexual acts in the context of pagan worship." If your goal is truly to educate gay Christians, it seems that this extra level of intellectual honesty would encourage them to consider more fully both sides of the issue and to do what their own consciences dictate in light of what the Bible teaches and what their own relationship with God demands.

There are many people whose sexual attraction is primarily or exclusively homosexual who have chosen to live a life a celibacy rather than to do something that they believe that the Bible teaches is dishonoring to God. I hope that you would recognize this as a valid choice. It seems that in trying to pretend that this is not a difficult issue scripturally speaking, you dishonor people who are so compelled.

Now returning to the back-and-forth on the issue at hand: The scripture I mentioned earlier according to the NIV reads: "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

You are right that Paul speaks in the plural. But, I still don't think that that really demonstrates any special contextual understanding. For example, consider the following statement: "Men typically engage in sexual acts only with women. But some men, namely homosexuals engage only in sexual acts with each other." I believe that this is an objectively true sentence that does not foreclose on the possibility of monogamous homosexual or heterosexual relationships. It is just to say that men, as a class, excluding those identified as homosexual (and the unmentioned bisexual and asexual), engage only in sexual acts with women. Some "typical" men choose to have relations with only one woman, while others may choose to have multiple women. The next sentence speaks of one group excluded by the first sentence and suggests a parallel to heterosexual male behavior, sometimes monogomous, sometimes not.

In the same way, Paul says certain men, as a class (those of whom he apparently disapproves), chose to replace their natural sexual relations with women (as a class) with sexual relations with other men (as a class). The plural here is used to suggest that he is talking about different classes or catergories of people (namely men and women), not suggesting that the actual sex of which he was speaking occured necessarily in groups.

One final observation, Paul uses the plural of women in that passage as well. The passage could be understood: "They substituted sex with women, in order to have sex with each other." It seems fairly clear from the statement that he approves of sex with women (notice the plural). If we accept that your analysis of the use of the plural, then that would imply that he approves of men having multiple female sexual partners. Since the Bible elsewhere teaches that a man is to have one wife, and that he is not to have sex with anyone but her, this would be a biblically incomprehensible conclusion.
 
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UberLutheran

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If gays and lesbians turned heterosexual overnight, it'd be a miracle.

So, who would become the next "designated sinner"?

Democrats? Liberals? Liberal Christians? Women in authority? Women who take contraceptives? Atheists? Non-Christians? (You know, that OP thingie...)
 
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davedjy

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So, who would become the next "designated sinner"?

Democrats? Liberals? Liberal Christians? Women in authority? Women who take contraceptives? Atheists? Non-Christians? (You know, that OP thingie...)
There always has to be a target for Christians...today it's us, sadly :sigh:
 
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Adammi

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Well, the last thing that Caucasian Christians fought against so vehemently before Homosexuals got the spotlight was African Americans.
There was a day when it was as plain as day to any Christian that African Americans were inferior and slavery was justified.
That was ridiculous, but it seems that fundamentalist Christianity will always be opposed to something in like manner.
 
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david_x

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Well, the last thing that Caucasian Christians fought against so vehemently before Homosexuals got the spotlight was African Americans.
There was a day when it was as plain as day to any Christian that African Americans were inferior and slavery was justified.
That was ridiculous, but it seems that fundamentalist Christianity will always be opposed to something in like manner.

Not the really concervative christians. We helped the slaves escape in the north. Quaker, mennonite, amish.
 
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Gusoceros

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Well, the last thing that Caucasian Christians fought against so vehemently before Homosexuals got the spotlight was African Americans.
There was a day when it was as plain as day to any Christian that African Americans were inferior and slavery was justified.
That was ridiculous, but it seems that fundamentalist Christianity will always be opposed to something in like manner.

I think what you mean to say, is that people will continue to sin, and claim it is Christianity, when it isnt. I see a lot of things attributed to Christianity, that really arent.

G
 
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UberLutheran

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Not the really concervative christians. We helped the slaves escape in the north. Quaker, mennonite, amish.

Not exactly. The Amish pretty much stayed to themselves; and the Quakers were religious liberals (which is why William Penn settled in Pennsylvania and not the very conservative Massachusetts with the Puritans).

My father's side of the family has a sizeable number of Amish ancestors, particularly in the 19th and 18th century -- so I probably actually know what I'm talking about though I don't expect the conservatives on this board to give me that much credit.
 
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UberLutheran

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I think what you mean to say, is that people will continue to sin, and claim it is Christianity, when it isnt. I see a lot of things attributed to Christianity, that really arent.

G

Like, racism?

Like, the institution of the Jim Crow laws in the American South (though things weren't that much better for blacks in the American North)?

Like, pograms against the Jews (after all, "the Jews killed Christ" and "the Jews have blood libel against them" because Jews supposedly killed Christian children and used their blood in the making of Passover bread -- and even though that was patently untrue it didn't stop Christians from launching pograms against the Jews)?

Like, the Salem Witch Trials (even though the likely culprit for the "visions" was ergot-infested flour)?

Like, the 30 Years' War between the Protestants and the Catholic Counter-Reformationists?

Like, the ongoing battle between Orange Protestants and Catholics in Belfast, Northern Ireland?

Like, Christian clergy in Rwanda who encouraged (and in many cases, participated in) the genocide of 900,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus?

Like the persecution of Bill Clinton by the American Religious Right for having an affair with Monica Lewinsky -- while the people leading the persecution (Henry Hyde, Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, and Dan Burton -- to mention a few) were all having extra-marital affairs of their own?

I can keep going. Just say when to stop...
 
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