Let's define "faith"

[KCfromNC]

You really should cite your sources if you don't want to be thought of as a plagiarist.

"To say that mind “emerged” from matter explains nothing.

Good thing I never offered that up as an explanation.

If the universe were merely a mechanism and mind were unapart from matter, we would never have two differing interpretations of any observed phenomenon.

You'll have to show your work here.

The concepts of truth, beauty, and goodness are not inherent in either physics or chemistry.

Depends on what you mean by inherent.

A machine cannot know, much less know truth, hunger for righteousness, and cherish goodness."

Again, simply saying things don't make them true.

"The inconsistency of the modern mechanist is: If this were merely a material universe and man only a machine, such a man would be wholly unable to recognize himself as such a machine, and likewise would such a machine-man be wholly unconscious of the fact of the existence of such a material universe.

Same problem here.

The materialistic dismay and despair of a mechanistic science has failed to recognize the fact of the spirit-indwelt mind of the scientist whose very supermaterial insight formulates these mistaken and self-contradictory concepts of a materialistic universe."

Yeah, science is pretty bad at recognizing lots of made up things, magical souls included.

"If this were only a material universe, material man would never be able to arrive at the concept of the mechanistic character of such an exclusively material existence.

Making stuff up and repeating it doesn't make it true.

This very mechanistic concept of the universe is in itself a nonmaterial phenomenon of mind, and all mind is of nonmaterial origin, no matter how thoroughly it may appear to be materially conditioned and mechanistically controlled.

That's nice an circular - we know mind is non material because we know it is. Hardly convincing.

"The partially evolved mental mechanism of mortal man is not overendowed with consistency and wisdom. Man’s conceit often outruns his reason and eludes his logic."

Yep, for example many people feel that there has to be something magical about their thoughts rather than them just being another physical system at work. People used to think this about life in general, at least until organic chemistry was developed.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

[FONT=&quot]Yes and Genesis is full of the qualities of God that speak of the quantum world. I mean it is at this point God actually creates quantum physics. So there is no better time that that.

It is also full of inaccuracies.

The quantum world points to things existing in another realm.

How so? You need to justify this claim.

That’s one of the reasons scientists have come up with hologram theory. They think that what we see isn't really the true reality of what existence is. It’s only a flat projected picture of our world. That there is something else beyond this, perhaps a consciousness that exists that is making those projections.

To my understanding, that's a misrepresentation of what the theory actually states.

The same with the multi universe theory. This is where there are other realm or world that exist and we are one of billions of them. In those other worlds/universes there could be another you or me living a slightly different existence. There could be monsters in them or strange activities happening that are totally out of this world. The physics would be different the laws of gravity would be different so they may be big and tall or short and flat. The list is endless. But this is what scientists are saying not me or religious people.

And? What does this have to do with the supernatural? I'm not seeing the connection you are trying to make. If there are multiple universes, there are multiple universes.

The problem is the very nature of working in quantum physics has a fine line between keeping to the strict parameters of the logical that is used in physics when they are looking at things in our reality. When you move into the quantum it goes into other realms.

No, it doesn't! I keep having to repeat this point because you keep ignoring it: the quantum world is our world, just at a very small scale.

I have to keep coming back to what many scientists agree and talk about the far fetched theories they have made themselves. So the woo is being promoted by the mainstream scientists themselves. That might be because that is sort of what they are seeing.

The implications may sound far fetched, but the question is whether the physics behind them stands up to scrutiny.

All Lanza is doing is taking it to another level and in a different direction.

Lanza isn't a physicist. His theory, if it can even be called that, has been taken apart by physicists. The same goes for Chopra.

I can get you several well know respected scientists like scientists Brian Greene.
Theoretical Physicist Brian Greene Thinks You Might Be a Hologram
Theoretical Physicist Brian Greene Thinks You Might Be a Hologram | Underwire | WIRED

Yes, ok. But what does this have to do with anything? What does this have to do with the supernatural?

Well not just any science because normally science would be conducted and show results that would contradict God. Its all testable and calculated. But when it comes to the quantum world it becomes more unpredictable and outside our reality.

But it's not outside our reality! It is our reality, at a very, very small scale.

Thats because the quantum world is close to where existence comes into reality. So this is close to God because God is said to have created existence into being.

Unsubstantiated.

I agree that it cannot go on. But the fact is it does. And its not always as in the media or public view so they wont know about it all the time. It is done behind closed doors as well. Within closed circles and that is why it has taken some time for it to be exposed and come to light. But it will go on in many ways in the back ground because this is what the consensus is. If you are a scientists who goes against that and challenges the norm then you wont get far. In fact you will be looked down on. But what I was also trying to establish is that because it has been shown to be so blatant in some circles when it comes to some of the smaller studies they will get away with it more easier. It also shows how much it is happening and that what I said about many results being biased on the side of showing that what is already agreed is true then it is not showing the truth about results. So then people are presented with half truths and skewed info which is always promoting one side more than the other.

I feel I have to repeat myself again: that's why we have systems in place to ensure the integrity and ethical conduct of research.

well if I did my intention was not to have evidence from that side only if at all as I know that atheists jump up and down about it. The problem is your side can link any science site even if its one of the dubious ones I have been showing. But we cant list any site with the slightest connection to religion because its rejected even if its validated by science. The problem here is that most of the sites that are going to question the science are the ones like religious sites that also have scientists on them. So I find it biased to reject them on the basis of religious connection. This would not be done in any other walk of life. It would be classed as discrimination.

There are plenty of science bloggers dissecting published research. If you wanted to know what scientists think about the current state of the literature on any topic it's easy enough to find out on Twitter, where a great deal of this informal discussion takes place.

But the conventional scientific method will find it impossible to explain it or prove that it happens by a naturalistic process.

Which doesn't automatically prove that a supernatural process took place. As I keep saying, steve, this is an appeal to ignorance, a fallacy. If we do not know, then we do not know. Masking our ignorance with a deity does nothing to advance our understanding any further than "We do not know."

What I meant by this is that science will find it near impossible to explain their own findings with the quantum world. That is why they are coming up with some far fetched theories. This is the same as when believers put God forward as a possible theory. But the difference is science are quick and ready to accept these many far fetched hypothesis that have put forward with no evidence but wont allow anything remotely religious or to do with God to even get a foot in the door.

steve, this is a double standard. You demand that naturalistic theories be verifiable and produce direct empirical results, but you exempt your own hypothesis from the same requirement. If no naturalistic theory is ever supported, that does not mean Goddidit wins by default. That's not how it works. You aren't exempt from the burden of proof.

I havnt said that it must definitely be God that is the answer. I have said why cant we allow God as one of the hypothesis. But its like getting blood out of a stone.

Here we go again. I have to keep repeating this point because it seems like you just aren't listening: Fine! Allow Goddidit as a hypothesis. You still have to do the work of showing that the hypothesis is probably true.

It seems the ctriteria for allowing these thing is tipped well in the science corner even if they have some pretty crazy ideas. Personally I think God is the answer but I would have a hope in getting that even glimpsed at with the wall that atheists put up. And its not all based on the fair and honest approach science claims they have that automatically looks for the truth. Thats just a cliche to protect themselves from having to play the game fair.

From what you've stated, it doesn't appear that you want to play a fair game. You want Goddidit to count as a hypothesis, but you don't want to apply the same level of scrutiny to that hypothesis as you do to others. You want special treatment.

It is logical to say that if this was proven beyond doubt then I would have to question myself. But I know this wont be the case as I am sure of Gods reality in my life. I have already gone through that phase anyway and ended up doing full circle. But the question should be is if God was proven beyond doubt would you then believe in God.

If there were sufficient reason to warrant belief in the doctrines of Christianity, then yes, I would think those doctrines should be believed.

See I have this personal theory that as a believer I can accept life without God. Ive done it before.

Not from your description, no, I don't think you have.

But at the end of the day if its not true I dont have a lot to lose. But if He is true as an atheists you will have a lot more to lose.

And if Islam is true you too have a lot to lose.

Its harder for an atheists to admit belief and stand before a God fully accepting that truth and position.

It's not hard at all! Why would you assume that it would hard for an atheist to do such a thing? If there is a God, I want to know about it. So why would it be hard to become a theist if one is standing directly before God?

It means giving up some power and control of your life. Its mean you are no longer the God of your own life.

:Facepalm:

Even if belief in God wasn't true its not such a bad thing anyway. You have a good role model, have hope when there none, and there is evidence that it gives you a better life physically, mentally and emotionally. So whats the harm anyway.

What's the harm?

To quote Voltaire, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can you make you commit atrocities."

 

[Colter]

The facts of reality? Who's facts in what century? Aren't you now being just as dogmatic about a presumptuous absolute reality as the religious are about say, the scriptures? You speak of the primacy of existence as if every fact of reality has been disclosed now and that these facts of final value are the foundation from which we should proceed???? That's not true science, that's religion, the religion of the Atheist who cannot prove the nonexistence of God but he has faith in his dogma of doubt.

So contradictions only exist in the incompleteness of understanding.

We are alive, we have two different interpretations of the same universe,(neither one of us can prove or disprove the existence of God) we are conscious of our observations of primacy of existence as transcendent beings. Religion would explain that we are children of an existential being that is not confined by the primacy of existence, that he is the source of existence, of reality, yet transcends it in Infinity and Eternity, that is why we CAN make observations and create conceptual frames. In effect you keep contradicting the theoretical constraints of the primacy of existence when you make observations outside of it.

"Materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe. But whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a Master Mathematician?"​

"Mortal consciousness proceeds from the fact, to the meaning, and then to the value. Creator consciousness proceeds from the thought-value, through the word-meaning, to the fact of action. Always must God act to break the deadlock of the unqualified unity inherent in existential infinity. Always must Deity provide the pattern universe, the perfect personalities, the original truth, beauty, and goodness for which all subdeity creations strive. Always must God first find man that man may later find God. Always must there be a Universal Father before there can ever be universal sonship and consequent universal brotherhood."​

UB

 

[Colter]

You really should cite your sources if you don't want to be thought of as a plagiarist.



Good thing I never offered that up as an explanation.



You'll have to show your work here.



Depends on what you mean by inherent.



Again, simply saying things don't make them true.



Same problem here.



Yeah, science is pretty bad at recognizing lots of made up things, magical souls included.



Making stuff up and repeating it doesn't make it true.



That's nice an circular - we know mind is non material because we know it is. Hardly convincing.



Yep, for example many people feel that there has to be something magical about their thoughts rather than them just being another physical system at work. People used to think this about life in general, at least until organic chemistry was developed.

If your thoughts are just a physical system at work then any other physical system responding to it is pointless.


I wrapped those quotes from the Urantia Book in Quote tags and forgot to source the Urantia Book.

http:/http://www.urantia.org/

 

[Colter]

This is the full quote about the dogma of materialis:

The Vulnerability of Materialism​

(2078.4) 195:7.1 How foolish it is for material-minded man to allow such vulnerable theories as those of a mechanistic universe to deprive him of the vast spiritual resources of the personal experience of true religion. Facts never quarrel with real spiritual faith; theories may. Better that science should be devoted to the destruction of superstition rather than attempting the overthrow of religious faith — human belief in spiritual realities and divine values.

(2078.5) 195:7.2 Science should do for man materially what religion does for him spiritually: extend the horizon of life and enlarge his personality. True science can have no lasting quarrel with true religion. The “scientific method” is merely an intellectual yardstick wherewith to measure material adventures and physical achievements. But being material and wholly intellectual, it is utterly useless in the evaluation of spiritual realities and religious experiences.

(2078.6) 195:7.3 The inconsistency of the modern mechanist is: If this were merely a material universe and man only a machine, such a man would be wholly unable to recognize himself as such a machine, and likewise would such a machine-man be wholly unconscious of the fact of the existence of such a material universe. The materialistic dismay and despair of a mechanistic science has failed to recognize the fact of the spirit-indwelt mind of the scientist whose very supermaterial insight formulates these mistaken and self-contradictory concepts of a materialistic universe.

(2078.7) 195:7.4 Paradise values of eternity and infinity, of truth, beauty, and goodness, are concealed within the facts of the phenomena of the universes of time and space. But it requires the eye of faith in a spirit-born mortal to detect and discern these spiritual values.

(2078.8) 195:7.5 The realities and values of spiritual progress are not a “psychologic projection” — a mere glorified daydream of the material mind. Such things are the spiritual forecasts of the indwelling Adjuster, the spirit of God living in the mind of man. And let not your dabblings with the faintly glimpsed findings of “relativity” disturb your concepts of the eternity and infinity of God. And in all your solicitation concerning the necessity for self-expression do not make the mistake of failing to provide for Adjuster-expression, the manifestation of your real and better self.

(2079.1) 195:7.6 If this were only a material universe, material man would never be able to arrive at the concept of the mechanistic character of such an exclusively material existence. This very mechanistic concept of the universe is in itself a nonmaterial phenomenon of mind, and all mind is of nonmaterial origin, no matter how thoroughly it may appear to be materially conditioned and mechanistically controlled.

(2079.2) 195:7.7 The partially evolved mental mechanism of mortal man is not overendowed with consistency and wisdom. Man’s conceit often outruns his reason and eludes his logic.

(2079.3) 195:7.8 The very pessimism of the most pessimistic materialist is, in and of itself, sufficient proof that the universe of the pessimist is not wholly material. Both optimism and pessimism are concept reactions in a mind conscious of values as well as of facts. If the universe were truly what the materialist regards it to be, man as a human machine would then be devoid of all conscious recognition of that very fact. Without the consciousness of the concept of values within the spirit-born mind, the fact of universe materialism and the mechanistic phenomena of universe operation would be wholly unrecognized by man. One machine cannot be conscious of the nature or value of another machine.

(2079.4) 195:7.9 A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably superscientific. Man is a material fact of nature, but his life is a phenomenon which transcends the material levels of nature in that it exhibits the control attributes of mind and the creative qualities of spirit.

(2079.5) 195:7.10 The sincere effort of man to become a mechanist represents the tragic phenomenon of that man’s futile effort to commit intellectual and moral suicide. But he cannot do it.

(2079.6) 195:7.11 If the universe were only material and man only a machine, there would be no science to embolden the scientist to postulate this mechanization of the universe. Machines cannot measure, classify, nor evaluate themselves. Such a scientific piece of work could be executed only by some entity of supermachine status.

(2079.7) 195:7.12 If universe reality is only one vast machine, then man must be outside of the universe and apart from it in order to recognize such a fact and become conscious of the insight of such an evaluation.

(2079.8) 195:7.13 If man is only a machine, by what technique does this man come to believe or claim to know that he is only a machine? The experience of self-conscious evaluation of one’s self is never an attribute of a mere machine. A self-conscious and avowed mechanist is the best possible answer to mechanism. If materialism were a fact, there could be no self-conscious mechanist. It is also true that one must first be a moral person before one can perform immoral acts.

(2079.9) 195:7.14 The very claim of materialism implies a supermaterial consciousness of the mind which presumes to assert such dogmas. A mechanism might deteriorate, but it could never progress. Machines do not think, create, dream, aspire, idealize, hunger for truth, or thirst for righteousness. They do not motivate their lives with the passion to serve other machines and to choose as their goal of eternal progression the sublime task of finding God and striving to be like him. Machines are never intellectual, emotional, aesthetic, ethical, moral, or spiritual.

(2079.10) 195:7.15 Art proves that man is not mechanistic, but it does not prove that he is spiritually immortal. Art is mortal morontia, the intervening field between man, the material, and man, the spiritual. Poetry is an effort to escape from material realities to spiritual values.

(2080.1) 195:7.16 In a high civilization, art humanizes science, while in turn it is spiritualized by true religion — insight into spiritual and eternal values. Art represents the human and time-space evaluation of reality. Religion is the divine embrace of cosmic values and connotes eternal progression in spiritual ascension and expansion. The art of time is dangerous only when it becomes blind to the spirit standards of the divine patterns which eternity reflects as the reality shadows of time. True art is the effective manipulation of the material things of life; religion is the ennobling transformation of the material facts of life, and it never ceases in its spiritual evaluation of art.

(2080.2) 195:7.17 How foolish to presume that an automaton could conceive a philosophy of automatism, and how ridiculous that it should presume to form such a concept of other and fellow automatons!

(2080.3) 195:7.18 Any scientific interpretation of the material universe is valueless unless it provides due recognition for the scientist. No appreciation of art is genuine unless it accords recognition to the artist. No evaluation of morals is worth while unless it includes the moralist. No recognition of philosophy is edifying if it ignores the philosopher, and religion cannot exist without the real experience of the religionist who, in and through this very experience, is seeking to find God and to know him. Likewise is the universe of universes without significance apart from the I AM, the infinite God who made it and unceasingly manages it.

(2080.4) 195:7.19 Mechanists — humanists — tend to drift with the material currents. Idealists and spiritists dare to use their oars with intelligence and vigor in order to modify the apparently purely material course of the energy streams.

(2080.5) 195:7.20 Science lives by the mathematics of the mind; music expresses the tempo of the emotions. Religion is the spiritual rhythm of the soul in time-space harmony with the higher and eternal melody measurements of Infinity. Religious experience is something in human life which is truly supermathematical.

(2080.6) 195:7.21 In language, an alphabet represents the mechanism of materialism, while the words expressive of the meaning of a thousand thoughts, grand ideas, and noble ideals — of love and hate, of cowardice and courage — represent the performances of mind within the scope defined by both material and spiritual law, directed by the assertion of the will of personality, and limited by the inherent situational endowment.

(2080.7) 195:7.22 The universe is not like the laws, mechanisms, and the uniformities which the scientist discovers, and which he comes to regard as science, but rather like the curious, thinking, choosing, creative, combining, and discriminating scientist who thus observes universe phenomena and classifies the mathematical facts inherent in the mechanistic phases of the material side of creation. Neither is the universe like the art of the artist, but rather like the striving, dreaming, aspiring, and advancing artist who seeks to transcend the world of material things in an effort to achieve a spiritual goal.

(2080.8) 195:7.23 The scientist, not science, perceives the reality of an evolving and advancing universe of energy and matter. The artist, not art, demonstrates the existence of the transient morontia world intervening between material existence and spiritual liberty. The religionist, not religion, proves the existence of the spirit realities and divine values which are to be encountered in the progress of eternity.

 

[True Scotsman]

The facts of reality? Who's facts in what century? Aren't you now being just as dogmatic about a presumptuous absolute reality as the religious are about say, the scriptures? You speak of the primacy of existence as if every fact of reality has been disclosed now and that these facts of final value are the foundation from which we should proceed???? That's not true science, that's religion, the religion of the Atheist who cannot prove the nonexistence of God but he has faith in his dogma of doubt.

So contradictions only exist in the incompleteness of understanding.

We are alive, we have two different interpretations of the same universe,(neither one of us can prove or disprove the existence of God) we are conscious of our observations of primacy of existence as transcendent beings. Religion would explain that we are children of an existential being that is not confined by the primacy of existence, that he is the source of existence, of reality, yet transcends it in Infinity and Eternity, that is why we CAN make observations and create conceptual frames. In effect you keep contradicting the theoretical constraints of the primacy of existence when you make observations outside of it.

"Materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe. But whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a Master Mathematician?"​

"Mortal consciousness proceeds from the fact, to the meaning, and then to the value. Creator consciousness proceeds from the thought-value, through the word-meaning, to the fact of action. Always must God act to break the deadlock of the unqualified unity inherent in existential infinity. Always must Deity provide the pattern universe, the perfect personalities, the original truth, beauty, and goodness for which all subdeity creations strive. Always must God first find man that man may later find God. Always must there be a Universal Father before there can ever be universal sonship and consequent universal brotherhood."​

UB

Who's facts? There you go again. There are not my facts and your facts there are only the facts of reality.

Let me ask you a question. So you reject the primacy of existence, which is a fundamental principle of reality having to do with the relationship between consciousness and existence and which is perceptually self evident? Is the principle false because you want it to be false or is it false independent of anyone's conscious wished, likes, dislikes, desires, preferences, demands or fears?

 

[True Scotsman]

This is the full quote about the dogma of materialis:

The Vulnerability of Materialism​

(2078.4) 195:7.1 How foolish it is for material-minded man to allow such vulnerable theories as those of a mechanistic universe to deprive him of the vast spiritual resources of the personal experience of true religion. Facts never quarrel with real spiritual faith; theories may. Better that science should be devoted to the destruction of superstition rather than attempting the overthrow of religious faith — human belief in spiritual realities and divine values.

(2078.5) 195:7.2 Science should do for man materially what religion does for him spiritually: extend the horizon of life and enlarge his personality. True science can have no lasting quarrel with true religion. The “scientific method” is merely an intellectual yardstick wherewith to measure material adventures and physical achievements. But being material and wholly intellectual, it is utterly useless in the evaluation of spiritual realities and religious experiences.

(2078.6) 195:7.3 The inconsistency of the modern mechanist is: If this were merely a material universe and man only a machine, such a man would be wholly unable to recognize himself as such a machine, and likewise would such a machine-man be wholly unconscious of the fact of the existence of such a material universe. The materialistic dismay and despair of a mechanistic science has failed to recognize the fact of the spirit-indwelt mind of the scientist whose very supermaterial insight formulates these mistaken and self-contradictory concepts of a materialistic universe.

(2078.7) 195:7.4 Paradise values of eternity and infinity, of truth, beauty, and goodness, are concealed within the facts of the phenomena of the universes of time and space. But it requires the eye of faith in a spirit-born mortal to detect and discern these spiritual values.

(2078.8) 195:7.5 The realities and values of spiritual progress are not a “psychologic projection” — a mere glorified daydream of the material mind. Such things are the spiritual forecasts of the indwelling Adjuster, the spirit of God living in the mind of man. And let not your dabblings with the faintly glimpsed findings of “relativity” disturb your concepts of the eternity and infinity of God. And in all your solicitation concerning the necessity for self-expression do not make the mistake of failing to provide for Adjuster-expression, the manifestation of your real and better self.

(2079.1) 195:7.6 If this were only a material universe, material man would never be able to arrive at the concept of the mechanistic character of such an exclusively material existence. This very mechanistic concept of the universe is in itself a nonmaterial phenomenon of mind, and all mind is of nonmaterial origin, no matter how thoroughly it may appear to be materially conditioned and mechanistically controlled.

(2079.2) 195:7.7 The partially evolved mental mechanism of mortal man is not overendowed with consistency and wisdom. Man’s conceit often outruns his reason and eludes his logic.

(2079.3) 195:7.8 The very pessimism of the most pessimistic materialist is, in and of itself, sufficient proof that the universe of the pessimist is not wholly material. Both optimism and pessimism are concept reactions in a mind conscious of values as well as of facts. If the universe were truly what the materialist regards it to be, man as a human machine would then be devoid of all conscious recognition of that very fact. Without the consciousness of the concept of values within the spirit-born mind, the fact of universe materialism and the mechanistic phenomena of universe operation would be wholly unrecognized by man. One machine cannot be conscious of the nature or value of another machine.

(2079.4) 195:7.9 A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably superscientific. Man is a material fact of nature, but his life is a phenomenon which transcends the material levels of nature in that it exhibits the control attributes of mind and the creative qualities of spirit.

(2079.5) 195:7.10 The sincere effort of man to become a mechanist represents the tragic phenomenon of that man’s futile effort to commit intellectual and moral suicide. But he cannot do it.

(2079.6) 195:7.11 If the universe were only material and man only a machine, there would be no science to embolden the scientist to postulate this mechanization of the universe. Machines cannot measure, classify, nor evaluate themselves. Such a scientific piece of work could be executed only by some entity of supermachine status.

(2079.7) 195:7.12 If universe reality is only one vast machine, then man must be outside of the universe and apart from it in order to recognize such a fact and become conscious of the insight of such an evaluation.

(2079.8) 195:7.13 If man is only a machine, by what technique does this man come to believe or claim to know that he is only a machine? The experience of self-conscious evaluation of one’s self is never an attribute of a mere machine. A self-conscious and avowed mechanist is the best possible answer to mechanism. If materialism were a fact, there could be no self-conscious mechanist. It is also true that one must first be a moral person before one can perform immoral acts.

(2079.9) 195:7.14 The very claim of materialism implies a supermaterial consciousness of the mind which presumes to assert such dogmas. A mechanism might deteriorate, but it could never progress. Machines do not think, create, dream, aspire, idealize, hunger for truth, or thirst for righteousness. They do not motivate their lives with the passion to serve other machines and to choose as their goal of eternal progression the sublime task of finding God and striving to be like him. Machines are never intellectual, emotional, aesthetic, ethical, moral, or spiritual.

(2079.10) 195:7.15 Art proves that man is not mechanistic, but it does not prove that he is spiritually immortal. Art is mortal morontia, the intervening field between man, the material, and man, the spiritual. Poetry is an effort to escape from material realities to spiritual values.

(2080.1) 195:7.16 In a high civilization, art humanizes science, while in turn it is spiritualized by true religion — insight into spiritual and eternal values. Art represents the human and time-space evaluation of reality. Religion is the divine embrace of cosmic values and connotes eternal progression in spiritual ascension and expansion. The art of time is dangerous only when it becomes blind to the spirit standards of the divine patterns which eternity reflects as the reality shadows of time. True art is the effective manipulation of the material things of life; religion is the ennobling transformation of the material facts of life, and it never ceases in its spiritual evaluation of art.

(2080.2) 195:7.17 How foolish to presume that an automaton could conceive a philosophy of automatism, and how ridiculous that it should presume to form such a concept of other and fellow automatons!

(2080.3) 195:7.18 Any scientific interpretation of the material universe is valueless unless it provides due recognition for the scientist. No appreciation of art is genuine unless it accords recognition to the artist. No evaluation of morals is worth while unless it includes the moralist. No recognition of philosophy is edifying if it ignores the philosopher, and religion cannot exist without the real experience of the religionist who, in and through this very experience, is seeking to find God and to know him. Likewise is the universe of universes without significance apart from the I AM, the infinite God who made it and unceasingly manages it.

(2080.4) 195:7.19 Mechanists — humanists — tend to drift with the material currents. Idealists and spiritists dare to use their oars with intelligence and vigor in order to modify the apparently purely material course of the energy streams.

(2080.5) 195:7.20 Science lives by the mathematics of the mind; music expresses the tempo of the emotions. Religion is the spiritual rhythm of the soul in time-space harmony with the higher and eternal melody measurements of Infinity. Religious experience is something in human life which is truly supermathematical.

(2080.6) 195:7.21 In language, an alphabet represents the mechanism of materialism, while the words expressive of the meaning of a thousand thoughts, grand ideas, and noble ideals — of love and hate, of cowardice and courage — represent the performances of mind within the scope defined by both material and spiritual law, directed by the assertion of the will of personality, and limited by the inherent situational endowment.

(2080.7) 195:7.22 The universe is not like the laws, mechanisms, and the uniformities which the scientist discovers, and which he comes to regard as science, but rather like the curious, thinking, choosing, creative, combining, and discriminating scientist who thus observes universe phenomena and classifies the mathematical facts inherent in the mechanistic phases of the material side of creation. Neither is the universe like the art of the artist, but rather like the striving, dreaming, aspiring, and advancing artist who seeks to transcend the world of material things in an effort to achieve a spiritual goal.

(2080.8) 195:7.23 The scientist, not science, perceives the reality of an evolving and advancing universe of energy and matter. The artist, not art, demonstrates the existence of the transient morontia world intervening between material existence and spiritual liberty. The religionist, not religion, proves the existence of the spirit realities and divine values which are to be encountered in the progress of eternity.

I'm not a materialist, I'm an Objectivist. Objectivism recognizes consciousness as one of its first two founding principles. It recognizes it not as a separate entity but as an attribute, an action of entities. Since our bodies are made of matter and energy then it is self evidently true that matter and energy can produce a conscious organism. There is no justification for proposing that consciousness is supernatural in origin. There is no logical path from the natural to the supernatural and by going there you put an end to any rational inquiry since by definition the supernatural is imperceptible. You just have to have faith that it is so and that's just subjective belief. Thank you for proving my point again that faith is a war on reality.

 

[poolerboy0077]

So, um, can somebody define faith already?

 

[True Scotsman]

So, um, can somebody define faith already?

Faith is what people use as an excuse to believe in things which there is no evidence to support or in opposition to evidence that goes against their belief.

In other words, pretending to know things you don't know.

 

[Colter]

I'm not a materialist, I'm an Objectivist. Objectivism recognizes consciousness as one of its first two founding principles. It recognizes it not as a separate entity but as an attribute, an action of entities. Since our bodies are made of matter and energy then it is self evidently true that matter and energy can produce a conscious organism. There is no justification for proposing that consciousness is supernatural in origin. There is no logical path from the natural to the supernatural and by going there you put an end to any rational inquiry since by definition the supernatural is imperceptible. You just have to have faith that it is so and that's just subjective belief. Thank you for proving my point again that faith is a war on reality.

Faith isn't at war with anything, it is the dead end philosophy of Objectivism that is at war with spirituality. It seeks the ultimate secular totalitarian state while deluding itself with the slogans of a false liberty. See Pol Pot.

Rand assumed room temperature long ago, her objectivism was powerless to resurrect her memory transcripts into a new form in another place for continued growth in spirit, only the indwelling spirit of God could do that and perhaps it did. We have her work and it's evil meme, but it's not a phenomenon of consciousness, only her mind was which was on loan.

Matter and energy is the platform on which mind rests (the hardware) but only a mind indwelt by spirit (the software) can perceive spirit values (Wi-Fi).

 

[Colter]

Mind from the UB:

The Mind Arena of Choice​

(1216.2) 111:1.1 Though the work of Adjusters is spiritual in nature, they must, perforce, do all their work upon an intellectual foundation. Mind is the human soil from which the spirit Monitor must evolve the morontia soul with the co-operation of the indwelt personality.

(1216.3) 111:1.2 There is a cosmic unity in the several mind levels of the universe of universes. Intellectual selves have their origin in the cosmic mind much as nebulae take origin in the cosmic energies of universe space. On the human (hence personal) level of intellectual selves the potential of spirit evolution becomes dominant, with the assent of the mortal mind, because of the spiritual endowments of the human personality together with the creative presence of an entity-point of absolute value in such human selves. But such a spirit dominance of the material mind is conditioned upon two experiences: This mind must have evolved up through the ministry of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, and the material (personal) self must choose to co-operate with the indwelling Adjuster in creating and fostering the morontia self, the evolutionary and potentially immortal soul.

(1216.4) 111:1.3 Material mind is the arena in which human personalities live, are self-conscious, make decisions, choose God or forsake him, eternalize or destroy themselves.

(1216.5) 111:1.4 Material evolution has provided you a life machine, your body; the Father himself has endowed you with the purest spirit reality known in the universe, your Thought Adjuster. But into your hands, subject to your own decisions, has been given mind, and it is by mind that you live or die. It is within this mind and with this mind that you make those moral decisions which enable you to achieve Adjusterlikeness, and that is Godlikeness.

(1216.6) 111:1.5 Mortal mind is a temporary intellect system loaned to human beings for use during a material lifetime, and as they use this mind, they are either accepting or rejecting the potential of eternal existence. Mind is about all you have of universe reality that is subject to your will, and the soul — the morontia self — will faithfully portray the harvest of the temporal decisions which the mortal self is making. Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being ever completely conscious in his mortal life; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious. And it is not so much what mind comprehends as what mind desires to comprehend that insures survival; it is not so much what mind is like as what mind is striving to be like that constitutes spirit identification. It is not so much that man is conscious of God as that man yearns for God that results in universe ascension. What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day and in eternity.

(1217.1) 111:1.6 Mind is the cosmic instrument on which the human will can play the discords of destruction, or upon which this same human will can bring forth the exquisite melodies of God identification and consequent eternal survival. The Adjuster bestowed upon man is, in the last analysis, impervious to evil and incapable of sin, but mortal mind can actually be twisted, distorted, and rendered evil and ugly by the sinful machinations of a perverse and self-seeking human will. Likewise can this mind be made noble, beautiful, true, and good — actually great — in accordance with the spirit-illuminated will of a God-knowing human being.

(1217.2) 111:1.7 Evolutionary mind is only fully stable and dependable when manifesting itself upon the two extremes of cosmic intellectuality — the wholly mechanized and the entirely spiritualized. Between the intellectual extremes of pure mechanical control and true spirit nature there intervenes that enormous group of evolving and ascending minds whose stability and tranquillity are dependent upon personality choice and spirit identification.

(1217.3) 111:1.8 But man does not passively, slavishly, surrender his will to the Adjuster. Rather does he actively, positively, and co-operatively choose to follow the Adjuster’s leading when and as such leading consciously differs from the desires and impulses of the natural mortal mind. The Adjusters manipulate but never dominate man’s mind against his will; to the Adjusters the human will is supreme. And they so regard and respect it while they strive to achieve the spiritual goals of thought adjustment and character transformation in the almost limitless arena of the evolving human intellect.

(1217.4) 111:1.9 Mind is your ship, the Adjuster is your pilot, the human will is captain. The master of the mortal vessel should have the wisdom to trust the divine pilot to guide the ascending soul into the morontia harbors of eternal survival. Only by selfishness, slothfulness, and sinfulness can the will of man reject the guidance of such a loving pilot and eventually wreck the mortal career upon the evil shoals of rejected mercy and upon the rocks of embraced sin. With your consent, this faithful pilot will safely carry you across the barriers of time and the handicaps of space to the very source of the divine mind and on beyond, even to the Paradise Father of Adjusters.

 

[True Scotsman]

Faith isn't at war with anything, it is the dead end philosophy of Objectivism that is at war with spirituality. It seeks the ultimate secular totalitarian state while deluding itself with the slogans of a false liberty. See Pol Pot.

Rand assumed room temperature long ago, her objectivism was powerless to resurrect her memory transcripts into a new form in another place for continued growth in spirit, only the indwelling spirit of God could do that and perhaps it did. We have her work and it's evil meme, but it's not a phenomenon of consciousness, only her mind was which was on loan.

Matter and energy is the platform on which mind rests (the hardware) but only a mind indwelt by spirit (the software) can perceive spirit values (Wi-Fi).

So is all of that true because you want it to be true (the primacy of consciousness) or is it true independent of anyone's conscious actions (the primacy of existence)? Why won't you answer this simple question? If you don't I'm going to make it much clearer that your faith is a war on reality.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Great. Now I'm torn between agreeing with True Scotsman for his comments on faith (pretending to know) versus agreeing with Colter for his comments on Rand (dead end philosophy). Thanks guys!

 

[variant]

Great. Now I'm torn between agreeing with True Scotsman for his comments on faith versus agreeing with Colter for his comments on Rand. Thanks guys!

Well since the discussion isn't really about Rand...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well since the discussion isn't really about Rand...

Fair point.

Back on topic:

 

[Colter]

So is all of that true because you want it to be true (the primacy of consciousness) or is it true independent of anyone's conscious actions (the primacy of existence)? Why won't you answer this simple question? If you don't I'm going to make it much clearer that your faith is a war on reality.

The Rand/God concepts are a false construct, that's why I have no answer to this straw man. You have invested your pride and even faith in these limited concepts, that's your problem to solve.

In selfhood the fact of life comes first, its evaluation or interpretation later.

"The possession of personality identifies man as a spiritual being since the unity of selfhood and the self-consciousness of personality are endowments of the supermaterial world. The very fact that a mortal materialist can deny the existence of supermaterial realities in and of itself demonstrates the presence, and indicates the working, of spirit synthesis and cosmic consciousness in his human mind.

There exists a great cosmic gulf between matter and thought, and this gulf is immeasurably greater between material mind and spiritual love. Consciousness, much less self-consciousness, cannot be explained by any theory of mechanistic electronic association or materialistic energy phenomena.

As mind pursues reality to its ultimate analysis, matter vanishes to the material senses but may still remain real to mind. When spiritual insight pursues that reality which remains after the disappearance of matter and pursues it to an ultimate analysis, it vanishes to mind, but the insight of spirit can still perceive cosmic realities and supreme values of a spiritual nature. Accordingly does science give way to philosophy, while philosophy must surrender to the conclusions inherent in genuine spiritual experience. Thinking surrenders to wisdom, and wisdom is lost in enlightened and reflective worship.

In science the human self observes the material world; philosophy is the observation of this observation of the material world; religion, true spiritual experience, is the experiential realization of the cosmic reality of the observation of the observation of all this relative synthesis of the energy materials of time and space. To build a philosophy of the universe on an exclusive materialism is to ignore the fact that all things material are initially conceived as real in the experience of human consciousness. The observer cannot be the thing observed; evaluation demands some degree of transcendence of the thing which is evaluated." UB​

 

[True Scotsman]

The Rand/God concepts are a false construct, that's why I have no answer to this straw man. You have invested your pride and even faith in these limited concepts, that's your problem to solve.

In selfhood the fact of life comes first, its evaluation or interpretation later.

"The possession of personality identifies man as a spiritual being since the unity of selfhood and the self-consciousness of personality are endowments of the supermaterial world. The very fact that a mortal materialist can deny the existence of supermaterial realities in and of itself demonstrates the presence, and indicates the working, of spirit synthesis and cosmic consciousness in his human mind.

There exists a great cosmic gulf between matter and thought, and this gulf is immeasurably greater between material mind and spiritual love. Consciousness, much less self-consciousness, cannot be explained by any theory of mechanistic electronic association or materialistic energy phenomena.

As mind pursues reality to its ultimate analysis, matter vanishes to the material senses but may still remain real to mind. When spiritual insight pursues that reality which remains after the disappearance of matter and pursues it to an ultimate analysis, it vanishes to mind, but the insight of spirit can still perceive cosmic realities and supreme values of a spiritual nature. Accordingly does science give way to philosophy, while philosophy must surrender to the conclusions inherent in genuine spiritual experience. Thinking surrenders to wisdom, and wisdom is lost in enlightened and reflective worship.

In science the human self observes the material world; philosophy is the observation of this observation of the material world; religion, true spiritual experience, is the experiential realization of the cosmic reality of the observation of the observation of all this relative synthesis of the energy materials of time and space. To build a philosophy of the universe on an exclusive materialism is to ignore the fact that all things material are initially conceived as real in the experience of human consciousness. The observer cannot be the thing observed; evaluation demands some degree of transcendence of the thing which is evaluated." UB​

That does not answer my question. Let me rephrase it. Is any objective fact a fact because you want it to be (primacy of consciousness) or are facts true regardless of anyone's likes, dislikes, dreams, preferences, wishes,demands or beliefs (the primacy of existence)? Answer the question or I'm going to make it much harder for you to evade.

 

[True Scotsman]

Fair point.

Back on topic:

Love Peter Boghossian!

 

[Colter]

Fair point.

Back on topic:

Not true for me. Maybe he means dogma?

 

[Colter]

That does not answer my question. Let me rephrase it. Is any objective fact a fact because you want it to be (primacy of consciousness) or are facts true regardless of anyone's likes, dislikes, dreams, preferences, wishes, demands or beliefs (the primacy of existence)? Answer the question or I'm going to make it much harder for you to evade.

No, while spiritual truth is relative and revelation always time conditioned, what we call a "fact" is a fact apart from ones desires although reality is inextricably linked to it's origins. That seems like a silly point? Is that supposed to be a game changer?