Let's be reasonable about evolution

[Yoder777]

Why don't you show us these differences that mutations and natural selection could not produce. Show us some aligned sequence and show us how mutations could not produce those differences.

Do you consider that there is more to human intelligence than natural mechanisms have explained?

 

[Loudmouth]

Do you consider that there is more to human intelligence than natural mechanisms have explained?

Why should I consider a claim that is not backed by any evidence?

Can you show me a single genetic difference between humans and other apes that could not be produced by random mutations and selection?

 

[Erth]

Why should I consider a claim that is not backed by any evidence?

Can you show me a single genetic difference between humans and other apes that could not be produced by random mutations and selection?

I cannot speak for Yoder, but I think you missed his point.

Anyway, the point as I see it is that human consciousness and its processes cannot be explained well when we have to use nothing but natural causes in our explanation.

 

[Yoder777]

I cannot speak for Yoder, but I think you missed his point.

Anyway, the point as I see it is that human consciousness and its processes cannot be explained well when we have to use nothing but natural causes in our explanation.

Exactly. Reductionists must, due to their own philosophical blinders, deny there is a mindal and spiritual aspect to man beyond what natural mechanisms can explain.

 

[Loudmouth]

Exactly. Reductionists must, due to their own philosophical blinders, deny there is a mindal and spiritual aspect to man beyond what natural mechanisms can explain.

Why do I have to deny claims that are not evidenced? The burden of proof is on you to support your claims. Why do I have to explain that which you can not show to exist?

As it stands, natural mechanisms do explain the differences we see between genomes. The differences between humans and other species is due to a difference in the sequence of our genomes.

 

[Loudmouth]

I cannot speak for Yoder, but I think you missed his point.

Anyway, the point as I see it is that human consciousness and its processes cannot be explained well when we have to use nothing but natural causes in our explanation.

What evidence supports your claims?

 

[Joshua V]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that life formed and changed through evolutionary processes. I don't see how anyone can deny this any more than they can deny that the sun is the center of our solar system.

 

[Yoder777]

As it stands, natural mechanisms do explain the differences we see between genomes. The differences between humans and other species is due to a difference in the sequence of our genomes.

Even if that were true, you still haven't explained how those genetic changes happened in the first place. Arguing about human intelligence with a reductionist is like arguing about common descent with a creationist. It usually goes nowhere.

 

[Loudmouth]

Even if that were true, you still haven't explained how those genetic changes happened in the first place.

They occur through the observed mechanisms of mutation. You are aware that mutations have been observed, correct?

Arguing about human intelligence with a reductionist is like arguing about common descent with a creationist.

Why? Please explain yourself.

 

[Yoder777]

Even if that were true, you still haven't explained how those genetic changes happened in the first place.

They occur through the observed mechanisms of mutation. You are aware that mutations have been observed, correct?



Why? Please explain yourself.

Again, even if one were to find the exact places in the human genome where the changes necessary for human intelligence happened, that wouldn't explain how they happened in the first place. It is simply a naturalistic assumption that no outside cause was involved.

 

[Loudmouth]

Again, even if one were to find the exact places in the human genome where the changes necessary for human intelligence happened, that wouldn't explain how they happened in the first place. It is simply a naturalistic assumption that no outside cause was involved.

What outside cause? Evidence please.

What we do have are observed natural mechanisms that change genomes. We also have a pattern of divergence between humans and other ape species that is entirely consistent with this observed mechanism. How is this not a valid explanation for how it happened? What other observed and evidenced mechanisms are we ignoring?

 

[Adaephon]

Even if that were true, you still haven't explained how those genetic changes happened in the first place.

DNA polymerase makes an uncorrected error during meiosis, resulting in a mutation. If beneficial, this mutation will probably propagate in the population due to differential levels of reproductive fitness.

 

[Yoder777]

What outside cause? Evidence please.

What we do have are observed natural mechanisms that change genomes. We also have a pattern of divergence between humans and other ape species that is entirely consistent with this observed mechanism. How is this not a valid explanation for how it happened? What other observed and evidenced mechanisms are we ignoring?

Perhaps you should read The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James, who had a very scientific mind:

The Varieties of Religious Experience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man is more than just a mutated ape.

 

[Yoder777]

DNA polymerase makes an uncorrected error during meiosis, resulting in a mutation. If beneficial, this mutation will probably propagate in the population due to differential levels of reproductive fitness.

But again, it is only a naturalistic assumption that the mind and spirit of man is an evolutionary accident rather than the product of an outside cause. You don't need to give me an encyclopedia definition of mutation, something I am already aware of, when we are discussing how the mindal and spiritual nature of man came to be.

 

[Loudmouth]

Perhaps you should read The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James, who had a very scientific mind:

The Varieties of Religious Experience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man is more than just a mutated ape.

So what is the actual evidence? What other observed mechanisms that cause genetic change are being ignored by scientists?

 

[Loudmouth]

But again, it is only a naturalistic assumption that the mind and spirit of man is an evolutionary accident rather than the product of an outside cause.

What spirit? What outside cause? Evidence please.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Man is more than just a mutated ape.

Just because you say so?

 

[Loudmouth]

If I said that creationism can't explain how Leprechauns were created, wouldn't you ask for evidence that Leprechauns exist to begin with?

 

[verysincere]

Man is more than just a mutated ape.

And birds are much more than mutated dinosaurs. And whales are much more than mutated ungulates. And my poodle is much more than a mutated gray wolf.

So what? Nobody is claiming that humans are not much more intelligent than the Great Apes one finds today in Africa or than the ancestors we share in common with them.

I'm always amazed when someone misunderstands The Theory of Evolution (or are they just pretending?) and speaks as if evolution requires that humans be no different from other animals in various ways.

 

[verysincere]

But again, it is only a naturalistic assumption that ....

Methodological naturalism is the very definition of modern science. If you are unhappy because science is not theology, you should distinguish Proximate Cause (the focus of science) from Ultimate Cause (the focus of theology.) Identifying the proximate causes of various natural phenomena does NOT deny or even make any statement about ultimate causes. Developing a theory of gravity in no way determines whether or not God exists. When Newton proposed his theory of gravity and laws of motion, he did NOT somehow "rule out God". Explaining proximate causes does not deny ultimate causes.

So this entire lame argument from some creationists is a bit like saying, "How dare you say that I come from Chicago. I come from the United States! You are denying the existence of my country!"