Let us Judge

[eutychus]

1 Cor 5:12-13

For what have I do to do with Judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God Judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Good Scripture that is often ignored.

So often I hear this on the forums, "dont judge me!" But Paul asks, "is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?" The Question is rhetorical prompting a positive answer. And almost as often I hear "you dont know whats in his heart," Well as this is a forum where our voices are heard, I cant help but be reminded of Matthew 15:18

But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person.

Yep.

You may say now, wait a second. "Read the sermon on the mount, it says remove the speck from your own eye, and dont forget the text that says, let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Surely this means that one must be sinless to judge. No it does not, but rather one must be right with the Lord (cf 1 John 1:7ff). Look at Paul, unless we forget that he is the self proclaimed worst of the worst in terms of sinners.

Very true.

To sum it up, get right with God, have him remove the plank in your own eye so you are free from hypocrisy, put your brother first, and correct in all gentleness. This is the proper way to judge our brothers, and should the brother caught in sin refuse to repent 'purge the evil one from among you.'

Ahh, if only church discipline and personal accountability were this simple. Too bad it is this necessary.

Good post.

 

[ZiSunka]

And yet, Paul used the word krino which means to divide, separate, make a distinction, come to a decision, to judge, to try in a judicial manner.

But not condemn, belittle, agravate, demean, punish or abuse, which is what a lot of judging comes down to. Judging in the original context means to discern, to identify, to understand the difference, not to hand down a condemnation based on external human observations.

I often find that those who most want to judge are those who are the most afraid and defensive about being judged themselves. They can always rationalize their own behavior, but they can't find compassion or grace for the behavior of others.

 

[Carrye]

Can we throw Rom 2:1-2 into the mix as well?

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Can we throw Rom 2:1-2 into the mix as well?

Sure, I particularly like this part: "practice the very same things." Present tense, on going action. The person squared away with the Lord will isnt practicing these things. I dont see a conflict.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

by the way, i needed to read that verse Bless your soul.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

But not condemn, belittle, agravate, demean, punish or abuse, which is what a lot of judging comes down to. Judging in the original context means to discern, to identify, to understand the difference, not to hand down a condemnation based on external human observations.

I often find that those who most want to judge are those who are the most afraid and defensive about being judged themselves. They can always rationalize their own behavior, but they can't find compassion or grace for the behavior of others.

You are right, that is the corrupt judging i was reffering too. I havent a doubt that the immoral man in 1 cor 5 was pleased about his judgement. But there is inherit good that comes out of it.

 

[Carrye]

by the way, i needed to read that verse Bless your soul.

I'm currently writing a paper on it (wrote all day today), so I guess it's on my mind. It's always nice when the Lord can use that ... and when we let Him.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

I'm currently writing a paper on it (wrote all day today), so I guess it's on my mind. It's always nice when the Lord can use that ... and when we let Him.

:Amen:

For this you shall no doubt recieve a grade less than that of a B+. You can count that as prophecy

 

[ZiSunka]

You are right, that is the corrupt judging i was reffering too. I havent a doubt that the immoral man in 1 cor 5 was pleased about his judgement. But there is inherit good that comes out of it.

Inherent good can come from many bad things, but that doesn't mean we should practice bad things so good can come of it. A woman I know had an abortion, which is bad, but in doing the procedure the doctor found a tumor in her abdomen which was cancerous but still in the earliest stages and was cured, which is good. Does that mean the abortion was a good thing and all women should have them in case they have a cancerous tumor they don't know about? NO!!!

Leave the judging to God and instead nurture your brothers and sisters in the Lord in the ways of the Lord and you won't have to worry about the urge to judge them.

Judging involves condemnation or acquital, and I know you know you are not in a position as a human being to condemn or acquit anyone of their sins, even your own.

Max Lucado told a story about a brother who was upset about the lifestyle of his brother who had started to live as if he didn't know the Lord. He got so invovled in keeping track of the sins of his brother that he failed to live his own life. All he did was keep a notebook of the brother's sins, while the brother went out and married and had a family and a career and eventually returned to the Lord. The first brother was so angry that his brother had lived an impure lifestyle and had all manner of good things, but he, who had spent his whole life being good and correctly judging his brother, had nothing to show for it except wasted time and an empty life. The rest of his days he insisted that his brother had ruined his life and his anger grew to the point that even after the brother repented and returned to the Lord, he refused to associate with him because he could not forgive him or admit that he needed to repent of his urge to judge as much as his brother needed to repent of his bad life. Go back and read the story of the prodigal son one more time, and see who the father showered with gifts and a party. It wasn't the good but judgmental son, it was the bad son who repented. It wasn't even the judgmental son who had turned him around and returned him to the family, it was the Holy Spirit. So the only thing that comes from noting and keeping track of the wrongs done by another is pain and sorrow for the record keeper. It has no effect at all on the person who is doing wrong.

 

[Carrye]

Inherent good can come from many bad things, but that doesn't mean we should practice bad things so good can come of it.
...
Leave the judging to God and instead nurture your brothers and sisters in the Lord in the ways of the Lord and you won't have to worry about the urge to judge them.

Judging involves condemnation or acquital, and I know you know you are not in a position as a human being to condemn or acquit anyone of their sins, even your own.

LL!

 

[aReformedPatriot]

LL do you always go to the extreme? What was a simple exhortation for good and biblical judging has become longwinded with supreme focus on the negative. Totally contrary to my OP.

Judging involves condemnation or acquital, and I know you know you are not in a position as a human being to condemn or acquit anyone of their sins, even your own.

God forgives sin, yes (i have never claimed contrary to that in my posts). I cannot absolve anyone, hence my continued plea for those to get right with God. It is then, only those, who are right with God who have that right to pronounce judgement on their brother for continued unrepentant sin. So now the question remains, to help us clarify your view, was Paul issuing a damning command when he says judge your brother, and expell the evil man from among you?

I have provided scriptural support for what I have said, you offer me speculations and max lucado. Are the prodigal son and Paul in conflict? No, the meaning behind the prodigal son is that God welcomes you back into his arms freely, Paul's instruction is a means to that end is it not?

 

[ZiSunka]

LL do you always go to the extreme? What was a simple exhortation for good and biblical judging has become longwinded with supreme focus on the negative. Totally contrary to my OP.

Fulfilling your mission of judging I see!

God forgives sin, yes (i have never claimed contrary to that in my posts). I cannot absolve anyone, hence my continued plea for those to get right with God. It is then, only those, who are right with God who have that right to pronounce judgement on their brother for continued unrepentant sin. So now the question remains, to help us clarify your view, was Paul issuing a damning command when he says judge your brother, and expell the evil man from among you?

Those who are right with God know they are never in a position to judge.

How about, instead of passing judgment on your sinning brother, you seek to restore him, like Paul taught us to do? Paul was talking about shunning a person who is so unrepentant that his sin is starting to poison the whole church, not shunning everyone who sins. Cripes, who would be left in a church if everyone who sinned was expelled! And it wasn't a "commandment" it was a recommendation for dealing with a man who pretends to be a Christian then continues to show he doesn't know the Lord by the most wicked means.

I have provided scriptural support for what I have said, you offer me speculations and max lucado. Are the prodigal son and Paul in conflict? No, the meaning behind the prodigal son is that God welcomes you back into his arms freely, Paul's instruction is a means to that end is it not?

Paul's instructions are supposed to be the means to a good end, yes. Restoration is always the desired goal. But more often this passage is misapplied and just forces the sinner farther from restoration. Here are some good scriptures you might have missed in your relentless focus on shunning:

Ga 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

Mr 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."


Lu 6:37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.

Ro 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

Ro 14:4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Ro 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Ro 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

Should I go on or is this last one convicting enough?

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Fulfilling your mission of judging I see!

Yep Wheres the eye rolling smiley when you need it.

Those who are right with God know they are never in a position to judge.

Dost thou playfully cast judgment on me? Implying that I am not right with God because of my 'mission of judging'? Is that not what you keep telling me not to do?

How about, instead of passing judgment on your sinning brother, you seek to restore him, like Paul taught us to do? Paul was talking about shunning a person who is so unrepentant that his sin is starting to poison the whole church, not shunning everyone who sins. Cripes, who would be left in a church if everyone who sinned was expelled! And it wasn't a "commandment" it was a recommendation for dealing with a man who pretends to be a Christian then continues to show he doesn't know the Lord by the most wicked means.

Goodness, LL, thats what I have been talking about. Shall I quote myself. Yes, I think I shall.

To sum it up, get right with God, have him remove the plank in your own eye so you are free from hypocrisy, put your brother first, and correct in all gentleness. This is the proper way to judge our brothers, and should the brother caught in sin refuse to repent 'purge the evil one from among you.'

God forgives sin, yes (i have never claimed contrary to that in my posts). I cannot absolve anyone, hence my continued plea for those to get right with God. It is then, only those, who are right with God who have that right to pronounce judgement on their brother for continued unrepentant sin.

Now, everyone sins, which should mandate repentance. But there are those who persist. Doesnt 1 Cor go on to discuss what you just said. Your blinded to fact that Paul TELLS US TO JUDGE IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE. You keep telling me that we should 'restore' the brother. WHICH IS THE POINT OF JUDGEMENT. i NEVER said that we should kick everyone out who sins (another extreme position you've drawn) as thats going to happen, but for the unrepentant this must be so. That they might be restored.

And you know what else is funny? If this man wasnt a Christian then Paul contradicted himself in saying that it is only God who is to judge the Lost, but here we have him pronouncing judgment against him anyways.


Reccomendation. Please tell me which part of this says that you may or may not do this:

"For what have I do to do with Judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God Judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you.""

Looks like a straight forward command to me.

Paul's instructions are supposed to be the means to a good end, yes. Restoration is always the desired goal. But more often this passage is misapplied and just forces the sinner farther from restoration. Here are some good scriptures you might have missed in your relentless focus on shunning:

again, wheres the roll eye smiley


http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...a+6:1&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

Ga 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...a+6:1&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...a+6:1&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...a+6:1&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

Agreed. Look at what I said in post 1 (are you reading what I am saying)

To sum it up, get right with God, have him remove the plank in your own eye so you are free from hypocrisy, put your brother first, and correct in all gentleness. This is the proper way to judge our brothers, and should the brother caught in sin refuse to repent 'purge the evil one from among you.'

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...11:26&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

Mr 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...11:26&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...11:26&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...11:26&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

Agreed. Where did I say that this judgement was permanently designed to keep someone out? Judement leads to handing over to satan which leads to restoration and forgivness.


http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...+6:37&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

Lu 6:37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...+6:37&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...+6:37&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...+6:37&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

Again agreed. My previous post asked you to tell us whether paul issues a damnable command, or 'reccomendation' as you like to say.

15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.

Praise Our Lord for his words.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...o+2:1&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

Ro 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...o+2:1&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...o+2:1&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...o+2:1&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

I thought we discussed this earlier, he is under condemnation because he is practicing the same things. He is not right with God. I am agreed with this verse, it does not conflict.
____________________________

I had responded to the other verses but I found I was saying the same thing, so i figured, why bother. I agree with all your quoted verses. However, I am highly interested to hear your thoughts on what you think about pauls seemingly contradicting statements concerning judging. In 1 Cor 4, you show him saying never judge, yet he tells us to judge in ch 5. Cant the Holy Spirit decide to make up his mind?


Let me finish my post with a quote from wayne jackson

"Let it be made clear. The type of judging that is condemned in the New Testament is not the righteous exposure of error or wickedness, or even the rebuke of a particular false teacher (see 1 Tim. 1:20; 2 Tim. 2:17-18). Rather, it consists of that which is done hypocritically, superficially, and in hostility."

Is this not what you see when you read all those verses and their surrounding context?

 

[SumTinWong]

Yep Wheres the eye rolling smiley when you need it.

You mean like dis?

 

[aReformedPatriot]

hahaha yea I like the one that rolls around. He is bothing rolling his eyes and showing that he is cracked out because of something. Good Stuff I say!

 

[SumTinWong]

hahaha yea I like the one that rolls around. He is bothing rolling his eyes and showing that he is cracked out because of something. Good Stuff I say!

Here is a better one:

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Here is a better one:

this one deffinitly appears to have smoked something

 

[SumTinWong]

Are you sayin he was rolling more than his eyes? LOL

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Are you sayin he was rolling more than his eyes? LOL

mwhahahaha mmm hmmm....