Let me try this again ... (Charismatic Universalism)

[JimB]

Since the “Universalism” thread was mysteriously moved from this forum (I am guessing because it did not fit an SFPC stereotype), let me try this again in a SFPC context:

Since I know there are many (though I am not one) Charismatics who hold universalist views of eternal salvation (e.g. Carman’s old pastor, Carlton Pearson, who has since been branded a “heretic” by former P/C friends and associates), I would like to open this discussion in this forum.

One P/C, a friend, just sent me an email expressing their personal universalist beliefs but felt that they were, lke Carlton Pearson, being accused by their P/C brethren of being deceived by “heresy”. My friend, who bases their belief on scripture (such as those listed below), wanted to know how I felt, knowing that I feel that any brother who honestly bases their beliefs on scripture and who does not remove themselves from the four essentialsof Christianity (i.e., faith in God through Christ, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, salvation by faith without works and personally receiving the Good News) is entitled to share why they believe what they believe, I gave him my ear.

Since I know other P/C’s hold biblical universalism (BU) views - some, I suspect, in this forum - but who are afraid to discuss it openly, I thought it would be good to discuss BU in this SFPC forum.

Personally, I do not believe the weight of scripture supports BU, although there is a group of evangelical (even P/C) Christians, who are themselves committed to scripture, who embrace it. While trying to balance out the belief that “God is Love” with the idea that “God is Just” with just feeble human intellect is almost impossible - only God can be “Love” and “Just” at the same time – here are some of the Biblical Universalist proof-texts he offered:

Romans 5. 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Romans 11. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

1 Corinthians 15. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Philippians 2. 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Colossians 1. 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

1 Timothy 2. 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
​

So, IMO, it is wrong to broad-brush all Christian universalists as “not having a scriptural leg to stand on.” Christian universalism does base its beliefs on scripture, just as, say, fundamentalists do. They just differ on their interpretation and application of scripture (like those above).

One of the purposes of opening this topic up in a forum like this one (SFPC), is to (1). Make you aware that BU is a growing belief system among P/C’s and (2). To acquaint you with why BU’s believe what they believe to forearm you.

\o/

​

You do not teach faith by argument; only by example.​

 

[Alpine]

So, in a nutshell what is "Charismatic Univeralism?" Is it the belief that everyone is going to heaven?

 

[JimB]

So, in a nutshell what is "Charismatic Univeralism?" Is it the belief that everyone is going to heaven?

Yep. It is the belief that everyone will one day be saved, based on scriptures like those in the OP. Hell, from a BU point of view, is more of a redemptive purging period than an eternal punitive one.

\o/

You do not teach faith by argument; only by example.​

 

[nephilimiyr]

As interesting and important as this topic may be, this topic is not to be discussed in the Christian only forums.

I posted a mod hat in the other thread yesterday and after the thread was moved I deleted the post. The CF rule on topics prohibits this topic to be discussed in the Christian Only Section of CF. Here is the rule:

3.5 Controversial Topics to Be Discussed Only in Certain Forums

A. You will not post content regarding the following subjects anywhere on CF except in Ethics & Morality, Liberal Theology, Christian Philosophy, or any subforums in the Congregation or Recovery* categories:

drug use
gambling
polygamy
extramarital or premarital sexual activity
homosexuality
transsexuality
abortion

*You will not make posts promoting or endorsing any of these subjects in Recovery forums.

B. Controversial doctrines listed below must be discussed in the Unorthodox Theological Doctrines or Liberal Theology forums only:

Full Preterism
Open Theism
Universalism or Universal Salvation
Annihilationism
Freemasonry

If you wish to discuss this topic you can continue the discussion from yesterday by going to the unorthodox Theology forum in the open forums where that other thread was moved to. Otherwise most likely this thread will either be moved also or will be deleted.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience this has caused and thank you for you understanding.

 

[ZeroTolerance]

Charismatic Universalism is silly..because if we are all going to heaven anyway then what was the point of christ dieing on the cross?

 

[Optimax]

Interesting. How do they incorporate scriptures like these into their theology?

Jn 3:15-16

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV

Ro 10:9-11

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
KJV

2 Co 5:6-9

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent , we may be accepted of him.
KJV

Heb 9:27

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
KJV

Rv 20:11-15

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

 

[Always in His Presence]

If P/C B & C's want to dicuss BU on a SFPC forum, then so be it.

I personally believe OR was correct in breaking relationship with CP over his BU stance. CP today does not distinguich himself as anything SFPC or P/C not even WOF.

So when CP was confronted by OR, WG, and most of the SFPC pastors he was formerly associated with along with the entirty of the HD and ORU boards, he made his choice.

 

[Always in His Presence]

should we keep the pc with the vp on the qt, because if the vc capture the vp we'll all end up on kp?

 

[JimB]

As interesting and important as this topic may be, this topic is not to be discussed in the Christian only forums.

I posted a mod hat in the other thread yesterday and after the thread was moved I deleted the post. The CF rule on topics prohibits this topic to be discussed in the Christian Only Section of CF. Here is the rule:

3.5 Controversial Topics to Be Discussed Only in Certain Forums

A. You will not post content regarding the following subjects anywhere on CF except in Ethics & Morality, Liberal Theology, Christian Philosophy, or any subforums in the Congregation or Recovery* categories:

drug use
gambling
polygamy
extramarital or premarital sexual activity
homosexuality
transsexuality
abortion

*You will not make posts promoting or endorsing any of these subjects in Recovery forums.

B. Controversial doctrines listed below must be discussed in the Unorthodox Theological Doctrines or Liberal Theology forums only:

Full Preterism
Open Theism
Universalism or Universal Salvation
Annihilationism
Freemasonry

If you wish to discuss this topic you can continue the discussion from yesterday by going to the unorthodox Theology forum in the open forums where that other thread was moved to. Otherwise most likely this thread will either be moved also or will be deleted.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience this has caused and thank you for you understanding.

Okay, Neph, I see the rule. Sorry. Did not see your Mod hat in the other forum.

Still, I believe this is a topic needs to be discussed in the SFPC forum since it is a rising issue among P/C’s. Carlton Pearson is not the first Charismatic Universalist nor will he be the last.

\o/

You do not teach faith by argument; only by example.​

 

[JimB]

If P/C B & C's want to dicuss BU on a SFPC forum, then so be it.

I personally believe OR was correct in breaking relationship with CP over his BU stance. CP today does not distinguich himself as anything SFPC or P/C not even WOF.

So when CP was confronted by OR, WG, and most of the SFPC pastors he was formerly associated with along with the entirty of the HD and ORU boards, he made his choice.

OK

 

[jrlinz]

i am going to avoid this thread, except to say that the two ideas are diametrically opposed. It is foolishness.

 

[probinson]

Folks,

While I realize that you wish to discuss this topic, the current CF rules (specifically, Rule 3.5 which neph posted above) prohibit this topic from being discussed in any location other than the Liberal or Unorthodox Theology forums. For that reason, the SF/PC staff will request that this thread be moved to the UT forum as was the other, where it will then be reopened.

Whether or not you agree with this rule, you may not discuss the rules in the congregational forums. There is a section of CF dedicated to discussing rules here. If you want to voice your disapproval of this rule, please do so at the link provided and not here.

Thank you for abiding by this ruling. We will try to have this thread moved and reopened ASAP.

Thanks,
-Pete