Legalism in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches

[prodromos]

In our case many parishes serve a community much larger than their churches. My church holds about 300 people comfortably; but there are over 250 families registered at my parish, so if everyone showed up at the same mass, we would have some serious problems. There are some parishes that have between 1000-6000 families registered; can you imagine the size and the cost of building a church that for one Mass can hold all the parishioners of such a parish?

Our response to such a problem is to build more churches.

My point is that most parishes have to have more than one Liturgy for the Lord's day, just to get everyone to the table.

Since our theology and praxis does not permit multiple liturgies, we build churches. I lived in Thessaloniki for 12 years and spent 10 of those years in the 2nd largest parish in Greece. Throw a rock in any direction in Thessaloniki and you will hit a church (or two). Plus there were at least 20 monasteries (that I knew of) within an hours drive from Thessaloniki. I'll willingly admit that Thessaloniki is a bit exceptional in that regard. I still can't get over how blessed we were living there.

 

[Tallguy88]

That is what time the Liturgy starts, but do try to get there from the beginning of Orthros (Matins) if you can. That is roughly an hour and a half earlier. Plus ideally you would want to attend the Esperinos (Vespers) the evening before. Occasionally we have services where all three are combined starting in the evening and finishing early in the morning.

Unfortunately, they had to stop saying Matins about two years ago. In not certain of the reason. They do a reader's service about 30 mins before liturgy now. There is 6:00 PM Vespers on saturday evenings, though.

 

[Tallguy88]

Our response to such a problem is to build more churches.

Since our theology and praxis does not permit multiple liturgies, we build churches. I lived in Thessaloniki for 12 years and spent 10 of those years in the 2nd largest parish in Greece. Throw a rock in any direction in Thessaloniki and you will hit a church (or two). Plus there were at least 20 monasteries (that I knew of) within an hours drive from Thessaloniki. I'll willingly admit that Thessaloniki is a bit exceptional in that regard. I still can't get over how blessed we were living there.

And here in the sticks, there is one orthodox church and one priest for 50 miles in any direction.

 

[Erose]

Our response to such a problem is to build more churches.

I understand. That is one thing with the way our liturgy is, that we can do things like this. I understand the impossibility of your liturgical tradition to have that much flexibility. Not an insult, just an observation. Our liturgy is pretty straight forward, and except for the major feasts during Holy Week, and Christmas, you can safely bet that any given Mass will last an hour to an hour and fifteen minutes, so it is possible and has become necessary as many of the parishes have grown, and the priest to layman ratio has gone the wrong way.

Since our theology and praxis does not permit multiple liturgies, we build churches. I lived in Thessaloniki for 12 years and spent 10 of those years in the 2nd largest parish in Greece. Throw a rock in any direction in Thessaloniki and you will hit a church (or two). Plus there were at least 20 monasteries (that I knew of) within an hours drive from Thessaloniki. I'll willingly admit that Thessaloniki is a bit exceptional in that regard. I still can't get over how blessed we were living there.

That's pretty interesting. I do find it fascinating concerning the differences of emphasis between our traditions though, not one better than another overall, just taking a different approach.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You can't have your cake and eat it too, Erose. You can't call Orthodox Christians Pharisees and act like that's not flaming an entire population of Christians! It's polemical and you know it.

As other posters have pointed out, there are those of us who have indeed lived in both worlds and get it, and there's those who haven't and don't. You are the latter, unfortunately. You admit you don't even know about the Divine Liturgy and what it's all about. You know very little about Orthodoxy and yet make big claims and defame us as Pharisees. It doesn't give you much credibility in your argument at all. If you want to be taken seriously, at bare minimum bone up on the DL and go to an Eastern Catholic DL, study liturgy and try not to attack people talking out of both sides of your mouth.

It's like calling somebody a Nazi and then saying, "uh, well, I didn't mean NAZI Nazi, I meant, uh, just the fascist side, not the racist, murderous, fanatical, hate-mongering aspect!" Nazis are all those things. Pharisees were all those bad things as well. They strained the gnat and swallowed the camel and were hypocrites, blind guides, lied and accused using false witnesses, were full of hatred and contempt, and they ultimately brought about the death of the Son of Man. Nice try, but calling the Orthodox Christian a Pharisee is tough to worm out of....

And I have yet to read any real substance to any of your claims or arguments. They're all accusations and vague perceptions. Give some examples and concrete, man.

Well I think that it was my comment on another thread that sparked this one. I did not claim that the Orthodox Church was legalistic. I used the term pharisaical, but did not imply it, in a legalistic definition. The Pharisees were legalistic no doubt, but they also had a problem of viewing the non-essential as essential; and from the conversation on the other thread this was the impression that I was getting from the Orthodox brethren I was having a discussion with, when we got on the topic of why they thought the New Liturgy of the Roman Church was not reverent.

It was not intended as an insult, but as an observation, and nothing more.

Concerning the legalistic discussion of this thread, well I think that all Apostolic Christians and most high Anglicans and Lutherans have no problem with laws and rules. As far as I know all Apostolic Patriarchates have their own canon law do they not? We all have a form of Judicial system as well do we not? One can truly say that the Ecumenical Councils were the Apostolic judicial system at work.

Anyway I don't know of any Apostolic Church, who believes that the law saves, and that one can (using a Protestant accusation) work their way into heaven. But we do have laws and we see the positive benefits of having those laws to help guide the Church's every day life.

Another point. The discussion about the Catholic Church setting a law that not going to Mass on Sundays is a mortal sin, if possible. My question would be to those who question it, why wouldn't it be? If one who could go to Mass, doesn't because they want to go to the beach instead or whatever else you can add here; are they not choosing a material good over God? How is that not a sin? As I understand it, anytime you place something before God, that ain't a good thing.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That's incredible! I have to drive 50 miles to get to church on Sunday. I hate it. I can't imagine what a grace it would be to be surrounded by the Orthodox Church!

Our response to such a problem is to build more churches.

Since our theology and praxis does not permit multiple liturgies, we build churches. I lived in Thessaloniki for 12 years and spent 10 of those years in the 2nd largest parish in Greece. Throw a rock in any direction in Thessaloniki and you will hit a church (or two). Plus there were at least 20 monasteries (that I knew of) within an hours drive from Thessaloniki. I'll willingly admit that Thessaloniki is a bit exceptional in that regard. I still can't get over how blessed we were living there.

 

[prodromos]

That's pretty interesting. I do find it fascinating concerning the differences of emphasis between our traditions though, not one better than another overall, just taking a different approach.

From where I stand though, the difference in approach underlines a completely different understanding of ecclesiology. Orthodox unity is centred wholly on the Eucharist. Each Orthodox community celebrates the liturgy together and all receive of the one bread. Our praxis and our belief is completely consistent. I have to agree with the assessment given by his eminence Patriarch Bartholomew in his address to Georgetown University years ago. He said Orthodoxy and Catholicism have become ontologically different. We are not the same church, and at a certain level we are not the same faith. I see this made clearer every time we have these discussions.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yes, and Catholics tend to scoff at what they see as minor stylistic differences. Good example? Leavened vs. Unleavened Bread!

We Orthodox are truly one bread, one body because we eat from the same loaf! We eat of one loaf in one liturgy, truly partaking of the same lamb.

Secondly, the azymes arguments, the situation of having yeast, leaven, in our bread, has huge theological significance. The Orthodox Church points to the unfulfilled nature of the bread in the time of Abraham with Melkizedek, in the Passover with Moses, in the Manna of the Exodus, and in the rituals of the Jewish people. They lack the fullness of Christ, the full leaven. When Christ came and after his ascension, we now have THE FULLNESS of Him! Our bread is now full, has the yeast, the depth, the full flavor of fulfilled salvation.

The Catholics, however, think differently. They used to use leavened bread. most history points to around 700-800 years of them using the leavened bread like we have for Holy Communion! Then they got into this "Jesus ate unleavened flat bread with no yeast, so we'll strive to be like the His celebration!" not comprehending or appreciating the significance of the leaven and remembering how the Early Fathers used leavened bread! Now they use stamped-out flat, tasteless wafer discs, hardly something we Orthodox can comprehend. When I see Mass on TV now, I almost don't even understand how they can call it bread.

So when we engage Catholics in conversations, this argument, "so you guys use full loaves and we use wafers, just a small stylistic preference, no big woop!" doesn't fly. And it's one of sooooo many things that separates us. They don't get it

From where I stand though, the difference in approach underlines a completely different understanding of ecclesiology. Orthodox unity is centred wholly on the Eucharist. Each Orthodox community celebrates the liturgy together and all receive of the one bread. Our praxis and our belief is completely consistent. I have to agree with the assessment given by his eminence Patriarch Bartholomew in his address to Georgetown University years ago. He said Orthodoxy and Catholicism have become ontologically different. We are not the same church, and at a certain level we are not the same faith. I see this made clearer every time we have these discussions.

 

[Rhamiel]

You can't have your cake and eat it too, Erose. You can't call Orthodox Christians Pharisees and act like that's not flaming an entire population of Christians! It's polemical and you know it.

I wish I could find an example of something pharisaical....

From where I stand though, the difference in approach underlines a completely different understanding of ecclesiology. Orthodox unity is centred wholly on the Eucharist. Each Orthodox community celebrates the liturgy together and all receive of the one bread. Our praxis and our belief is completely consistent. I have to agree with the assessment given by his eminence Patriarch Bartholomew in his address to Georgetown University years ago. He said Orthodoxy and Catholicism have become ontologically different. We are not the same church, and at a certain level we are not the same faith. I see this made clearer every time we have these discussions.

oh, found it...
wafer or loaf of bread..... clearly not even the same faith

Matthew 23:24
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Perfect!!! This points exactly to what I was saying in my post, Rhamiel! You guys DON'T GET IT! We explain the theological significance of it, and you guys turn around and say it's Pharisaical! How? How is it an example of blind guides straining gnats?

Dude, in the end, if you want to play this game, we can call ANYTHING Pharisaical if we want to, right? You guys think people are only forgiven the ETERNAL effects of sin in confession, not the TEMPORAL, so you come up with this innovative (the Early Church would've bugged their eyes out at this!) idea of time off for good behavior and doing certain rituals like visiting relics or churches with a saint's name during Jubilee Years and saying a prayer so many times. Talk about Pharisaical! There is no theological ties to the Fathers with such thinking. It's legalistic and innovative. It's the clergy controlling a person's salvation with weird formulas and hoops and ladders legally. Now, no doubt you'll reply that this is something the Fathers believed in (no way) and that somehow it's not Pharisaical at all, but something theologically beautiful and shows a loving God. See how this works? Pharisaical is something you throw at someone when you've either lost an argument or you're scratching around for something to throw in a gladiator match after your sword, spear, and armor are broken. It's like the badguy in cop movies who runs out of bullets after shooting at Batman, so he throws the pistol itself hoping to hit and hurt. Doesn't wash.

Take the time to read about leaven and why Orthodoxy refuses to use cardboardish mass-produced flat discs in place of the Prosfora, the True Bread of the Eucharist! Actually read up on it and look theologically at it before you assume it's Pharisaism. Remember the three words to be found within the word "assume!"

Pharisees threw out grace, mercy, love, forgiveness, reconciliation, the sense of loving God to the point that we love our neighbors as ourselves. They lose the heart of the Law and lived for its letter. You cannot prove that Orthodoxy does that. Orthodoxy doesn't stick to laws and rules without heart, reconciliation, mercy, and forgiveness!? The day that Holy Orthodoxy becomes a religion ONLY of liturgy, and we cease our charity, love, forgiveness, mercy, prayer life, and hope, then you can call us Pharisees. But I'm willing to bet you can't prove such allegations, right?

I wish people would quit using words they don't understand. Pharisees are probably the most overly-used Christian "bad word" name-calling go-to I've seen in CF and yet nobody uses the insult properly!? :o

I wish I could find an example of something pharisaical....



oh, found it...
wafer or loaf of bread..... clearly not even the same faith

Matthew 23:24
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

 

[prodromos]

I wish I could find an example of something pharisaical....



oh, found it...
wafer or loaf of bread..... clearly not even the same faith

Matthew 23:24
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

I didn't say anything about wafers, nor leavened vs unleavened. I simply described the theological significance of why the faithful partake of ONE BREAD. This symbol no longer exists in the praxis of the Latin rite. This is at the core of our Eucharistic unity yet you dismiss it as the equivalent of "gnat". I get the impression you are simply out to pick a fight.

 

[Rhamiel]

Perfect!!! This points exactly to what I was saying in my post, Rhamiel! You guys DON'T GET IT!

I get it, I just think you are wrong

Pharisees threw out grace, mercy, love, forgiveness, reconciliation

hearing you talk about "cardboardish mass-produced flat discs" really just screams of love and reconciliation. How could I ever mistake such talk for sounding like it came from a Pharisee?

and this is a bit odd, you are criticizing penance? does your church not have penance?

 

[prodromos]

I get it, I just think you are wrong

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi

 

[Rhamiel]

forgive me if I have been rude or bellicose
I will try to think of more productive ways to get my ideas across

 

[Erose]

From where I stand though, the difference in approach underlines a completely different understanding of ecclesiology. Orthodox unity is centred wholly on the Eucharist. Each Orthodox community celebrates the liturgy together and all receive of the one bread. Our praxis and our belief is completely consistent. I have to agree with the assessment given by his eminence Patriarch Bartholomew in his address to Georgetown University years ago. He said Orthodoxy and Catholicism have become ontologically different. We are not the same church, and at a certain level we are not the same faith. I see this made clearer every time we have these discussions.

The biggest problem I think that many on the Eastern side is that they either don't realize, or ignore the fact that for most of the Church's history the Patriarchs have been different in many ways, whether it is Rome or Alexandria or Antioch or their daughter Patriarchites. And each period that this has been forgotten or ignored there has been Schism. When it has been known and accepted, we have had strength as a Church.

I think it can be best describe just how different men and women are to each other; and yet two creatures so different, can enter into a union with each other is sometimes mind-boggling. And when you look at the early Church history it at times mind-boggling that the union lasted as long as it did.

Greeks, Latins, and Egyptians just don't think the same. They look at things differently and always have. There is a reason why the first seven Ecumenical Councils were all in the East. Have you ever asked yourself why that was the case? I think it would be a good thought experiment.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well let's look at it. Are they flat? Yep. Are they shaped like discs? Yep. Are they mass-produced instead of from one loaf? Yep. Do they have a card-boardish texture? Yep.

Pharisaical? Nope. Just true. I'm not seeking reconciliation, just discussing the differences here. It is precisely these types of things that keep us from reconciliation! The Catholic Church used to understand the significance of the One Loaf and the leaven. After 800 years or so, they drifted into the wafer disc mindset trying to copy the conditions of unleavened flat bread like Jews to be like Jesus on the night of the Last Supper. In reality, they missed the whole point....

Orthodox don't focus on penance, no. Occasionally priests will give a penance, often for great sins, but in general, they're not used anywhere NEAR what they are in Catholicism. They're a staple of the confessional in the CC. And penances in Orthodoxy are opportunities to grow in reconciliation rather than formulaic statements of prayer like in Catholicism. "Go pray five Our Fathers!" is legalistic formulas rather than a helpful aid in reconciling oneself to God.

I hearing you talk about "cardboardish mass-produced flat discs" really just screams of love and reconciliation. How could I ever mistake such talk for sounding like it came from a Pharisee?

and this is a bit odd, you are criticizing penance? does your church not have penance?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is your attempt at humor, right? Pope Honorius anyone? Or how about Pelagianism? Or Donatism? Spanish Inquisition? Albigensianism? Oh....and are you ready for this one? gurney winds up, and here's the pitch!...you guys had a little thing in the 16th Century called....THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION! And that worked out great for y'all didn't it? Good thing you got that under wraps, no blood was shed, and all those folks stayed Catholic, right? And you guys had nothing to do with it, right? No corruption on your part or poor leadership or bad catechesis or poor debating that created that mess!

I find it funny how you folks like to point out heresies based on geography, but you don't point out HOLINESS based on geography!

St. John Chrysostom
St. Isaac the Syrian
St. Basil the Great
St. Justin the Martyr
St. Ignatius of Antioch
St. Athanasius
St. Gregory the Theologian
St. Nicholas
St. Cyril
St. Methodius
St. John Climacus
St. Maximus the Confessor
St. Gregory of Nyssa


And if we want to get silly with geography, Jesus was born in the East and so was the Theotokos, so I guess the East did ok!

Geographical claims that somehow patriarchs in the East or bishops in the East are guilty for the creation of schisms, hmmm, gotcha! :o

There is a reason why the first seven Ecumenical Councils were all in the East. Have you ever asked yourself why that was the case? I think it would be a good thought experiment.

 

[Erose]

I didn't point out heresies. Just the fact that the Patriarchates don't think or act the same way. There is a reason why our liturgies are different. There are reasons why we emphasize different aspects of the liturgy. There are reasons why we approach certain theological positions differently. One not better than the other, just different.

All the Patriarchates with all their differences produce Saints, even the Roman Church, which looks like you will probably disagree with, since our tradition uses evil unleavened bread, instead of leavened.

I have to say that for people getting up in arms about my Pharisaical comment, you sure are spending a lot of effort to prove my observation correct. I would have loved to be wrong about that comment, but sadly it doesn't look like I was.

 

[Rhamiel]

"Go pray five Our Fathers!" is legalistic formulas rather than a helpful aid in reconciling oneself to God.

having a number of prayers to say is legalistic?

I seem to remember in book "The Way of a Pilgrim" it starts off the Pilgrim being told say the Jesus prayer a number of times a day

you are way judgmental.... you see this, and you automatically just call it legalistic without thinking that it might be used not to be "legalistic" but rather as a way to help people, to pray for certain things

also, NO ONE here has came up with a working definition for "legalism"
you go on about how "pharrasitical" is a catch all term that people just throw out without thinking about what it means....
but you seem to be doing the same thing with "legalism"

 

[Tallguy88]

I regret starting this thread. There has been nothing accomplished. Just pointless East vs West bickering. I've requested a moderator close it.