"Left Behind"

[Danoh]

You guys and your consistent generalizations...

 

[ebedmelech]

You guys and your consistent generalizations...

Nothing inconsistent about Jesus...and 4 times in John 6 He says "I will raise him up on the LAST DAY.

No pretrib rapture!

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 20:

This whole "Left Behind" idea is really an affront to scripture...especially when those who believe such an idea, CANNOT show it in scripture.

The idea seems to be based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41. But people should realize that these passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

ebedmelech said in post 20:

The bible is very clear...when Jesus returns HE, will separate the sheep form the goats...

Note that Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

ebedmelech said in post 20:

...and that is done in the resurrection ON THE LAST DAY...just as Jesus said.

Note that in verses like John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera: G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the physically resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Also, the "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

 

[Isaiah Jeremiah]

Nothing inconsistent about Jesus...and 4 times in John 6 He says "I will raise him up on the LAST DAY.

You never answered my question about that from 2 months ago. When is the last day?

 

[ebedmelech]

You never answered my question about that from 2 months ago. When is the last day?

I certainly did. The "last day" is when Jesus returns to judge the world. You'll know *when* it is when it happens. As Jesus told the apostles in Acts 1:7:
7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

Wait for it...

 

[appleofhiseye]

Question for anyone who has seen the movie(s) or read the books:

I understand they dramatize the "Pre-Trib" view. I'm curious about the exact form they present. Do they teach that all Xians get Raptured? Or do only those who meet some standard of "righteousness" or "holiness" or doctrinal purity get taken up?

They depict all believers and innocent babies and children regardless of their parents beliefs are taken away suddenly(in a blink of the eye). There were left behind some that were posers or pretenders.

I watched the latest movie, did not read the books.

 

[Biblewriter]

Danoh,
what are your examples of the 'soon gave way to reasoning'?

Yes, people properly reacted to Darby because it reintroduces Judaism after the fact of the Gospel, but in eschatological form. Have you researched British Adventism? We all know Adventism has quite a place for the Judaic law, right? But did you know that British Adventism is extremely similar to Darby, Scofield, Irvings because...it is a way of reintroducing Judaism. Its 2P2P. American Adventism separated with Ellen W and developed its doctrines of 1844 and the Great Disappointment (1844 was calculated to be the end of 2960 years or something...).

This is totally false. Dispensationaism and Adventism are entirely different.

Dispensationalism clearly teaches that no one will ever be saved without a living faith in Jesus as the one and only savior. We do not, nor did we ever, teach that in a future day (or even in the past) anyone was ever saved through keeping the law. People are only saved by faith in God, and now that Jesus has come, it is not sufficient to trust God, but to trust in Jesus.

And dispensational doctrine did not begin with Darby. The very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of ay significant length that has survived to the present day teacher the following sequence of events:

1. In the last times the Roman Empire shall be partitioned among ten kings.

2. One of these ten kings will slay three of the others, subject the rest to his power, and put the Church to flight.

3. When the church is “suddenly caught up from” the nations there will be great tribulation which will be “the last contest of the righteous.”

4. The Antichrist will reign for three years and six months.

5. The Antichrist and his followers will be destroyed when the Lord comes in the clouds.

6. The just will be resurrected after the coming of Antichrist.

7. The righteous will reign in the earth.

8. The survivors of the tribulation will serve in the kingdom and multiply on the earth.

9. After the kingdom will come the general resurrection and judgement.

10. After the judgment will come the new heavens and new earth.

This is exactly the order of events foreseen by Dispensationalists of the persuasion that is now called the “mid-tribulation rapture.”

The same document also taught each of the following:

1. That in the future there will again be a temple in Jerusalem.
2. That this future temple will be “the temple of God.”
3. That this future Jewish temple is where the Antichrist will sit as God.
4. And that Daniel’s seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Each of these concepts is unquestionably an element of Dispensationalism.

And the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture that has survived to the present day very clearly taught that Daniel's seventieth week remained to be fulfilled in the future.

 

[SarahsKnight]

It's a doctrine that is out of steam as far as influencing a believer. Instead of motivating the believer to honor Christ for the Gospel, it's "spooking" the believer and jerking his nervous system around about a being left in a dreadful circumstance on earth. This does not 1, answer other dreadful circumstances which take place, and 2, there is no scaring the believer into service. Love casts out fear; fear has no place. Do not do things for Christ out of fear.

Amen to that, Inter. I found that doing good for fear of punishment (in particular, hell) got me almost nowhere in my relationship with God, nor did it ultimately help me sin any less in my life. That's why I began to question and want to investigate to veracity of popular doctrine. Unless I ask questions, I cannot expect any answers.

Besides, I always did suspect somewhere deep down inside all this time that the Left Behind movies were ... rather sensationalistic.

 

[Biblewriter]

And we have the whole NT saying nothing about any of this. Why do we spend 95% of our time on things the NT says nothing about? Why don't we figure out why is 25 and Hos 13, which appear to be about Israel's destiny, are actually about the victory over death in the Gospel?

In case you didn't notice it, the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is based 100% on the New Testament.

 

[Biblewriter]

Nothing inconsistent about Jesus...and 4 times in John 6 He says "I will raise him up on the LAST DAY.

No pretrib rapture!

In Greek, even as in English, the word day has three possible meanings. One is a span of 24 hours. One is the time during which the earth is lighted by the sun. And one is a general period of time.

You are insisting on the span of 24 hours meaning. And that is indeed a possible interpretation of Jesus' words in John 6. But that is not the only possible meaning. And other scriptures make it exceedingly plain that what He really meant was the third meaning, that is, "the last time," or "the end time."

 

[Isaiah Jeremiah]

I certainly did. The "last day" is when Jesus returns to judge the world. You'll know *when* it is when it happens. As Jesus told the apostles in Acts 1:7:
7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

Wait for it...

That's not making sense to me. It says in Acts 1:7 it is not for you to know. So how would you know this verse means the last day is when Jesus returns to judge the world if we're not to know?

Plus when I read Acts, it seems more like Jesus was answering a question about when Israel would be restore, not when he comes to judge the world.

Acts 1:6-7 NASB
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

 

[ebedmelech]

This is totally false. Dispensationaism and Adventism are entirely different.

Dispensationalism clearly teaches that no one will ever be saved without a living faith in Jesus as the one and only savior. We do not, nor did we ever, teach that in a future day (or even in the past) anyone was ever saved through keeping the law. People are only saved by faith in God, and now that Jesus has come, it is not sufficient to trust God, but to trust in Jesus.

And dispensational doctrine did not begin with Darby. The very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of ay significant length that has survived to the present day teacher the following sequence of events:

1. In the last times the Roman Empire shall be partitioned among ten kings.

2. One of these ten kings will slay three of the others, subject the rest to his power, and put the Church to flight.

3. When the church is “suddenly caught up from” the nations there will be great tribulation which will be “the last contest of the righteous.”

4. The Antichrist will reign for three years and six months.

5. The Antichrist and his followers will be destroyed when the Lord comes in the clouds.

6. The just will be resurrected after the coming of Antichrist.

7. The righteous will reign in the earth.

8. The survivors of the tribulation will serve in the kingdom and multiply on the earth.

9. After the kingdom will come the general resurrection and judgement.

10. After the judgment will come the new heavens and new earth.

This is exactly the order of events foreseen by Dispensationalists of the persuasion that is now called the “mid-tribulation rapture.”

The same document also taught each of the following:

1. That in the future there will again be a temple in Jerusalem.
2. That this future temple will be “the temple of God.”
3. That this future Jewish temple is where the Antichrist will sit as God.
4. And that Daniel’s seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Each of these concepts is unquestionably an element of Dispensationalism.

And the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture that has survived to the present day very clearly taught that Daniel's seventieth week remained to be fulfilled in the future.

That doesn't make it correct Biblewriter.

Those are concepts of a theology that you believe to be true...that can easily be refuted.

Your idea that there will be a temple in Jerusalem is a *belief* scripture doesn't teach that AT ALL!!!

You'll find that out!

The apostles teach that the church is the temple of God...that trumps any contrived idea you have about it. There will be no "Temple of God" that is not the church.

The temple open in heaven when Jesus ascended...and you're so drowned in your "dispensational maze", that you can't see it.

It's Revelation 11:15-19...all you have to do is read it...

 

[Biblewriter]

That doesn't make it correct Biblewriter.

Those are concepts of a theology that you believe to be true...that can easily be refuted.

Your idea that there will be a temple in Jerusalem is a *belief* scripture doesn't teach that AT ALL!!!

You'll find that out!

The apostles teach that the church is the temple of God...that trumps any contrived idea you have about it. There will be no "Temple of God" that is not the church.

The temple open in heaven when Jesus ascended...and you're so drowned in your "dispensational maze", that you can't see it.

It's Revelation 11:15-19...all you have to do is read it...

You are denying the last third of Ezekiel.

 

[Interplanner]

...that portion which has no apostolic validation for what you are doing with it. Why don't you work with the passages that do, like I Pet 1 and Eph 2? Why do you take the exception position that you say is based on some lines from Irenaeus but which the 1800s futurists did not bother to identify?

And now there is Rev20's quotes on what Ireneaus and Polycarp meant by chiliasm. They meant the church but it sounds like Israel. How do you feel about that? Doesn't that drop everything they said in the trash?

 

[Biblewriter]

...that portion which has no apostolic validation for what you are doing with it. Why don't you work with the passages that do, like I Pet 1 and Eph 2? Why do you take the exception position that you say is based on some lines from Irenaeus but which the 1800s futurists did not bother to identify?

And now there is Rev20's quotes on what Ireneaus and Polycarp meant by chiliasm. They meant the church but it sounds like Israel. How do you feel about that? Doesn't that drop everything they said in the trash?

I work with the entire word of God, not just with part of it.

And I base absolutely nothing of the writings of any man, whether ancient, from the 1800's, or modern.

Irenaeus and Polycarp indeed said the things Rev20 quoted. But he has not studied them enough to understand what they were really saying. They say that the church will rule during the millennium. And that is what dispensationalists say. But you cannot rule without someone to rule over. Their discussion of that part is what Rev20 did not even notice.

I am not going to bother to go into great detail to prove this, because all of you would deny it even when I did. And the point is not important anyway. The only reason I even bothered to write what I did was to prove, once and for all, the utter falsehood of the claim that dispensational doctrine was never taught before 1800.