Left and Right

[Chamdar]

In my opinion, the views of most people on the modern Left and the modern Right are incompatible with Christianity. Most on the Left support moral/cultural nihilism and while most on the Right celebrate war and bloodshed and have hatred and contempt for the poor (and both sides worship Mammon).

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The idea of 'left/right' seems to me rather arbitary and prone most of all to subjective judgement about one's status on the 'political compass'. For example, in Australia, the Center-Right Liberal Party is proposing a 6 (or perhaps it was 12) month maternity leave scheme, funded by the Federal Government. Now that it is a policy most Americans would ordinarily expect to come from the Left, not the Right. Similarly with socialised healthcare. I'd wager that most people in Canada, the UK, Europe and Australia do not see such a policy as radically 'left-wing' at all. Perhaps it is the case then that we cannot judge an individual's position on the political compass, but rather, we can assess their political position on a particular issue on the axis of Left-Right. For example, the same individual can hold a plethora of opinion, and his stance on one issue may be correctly identified on the 'Right', whereas his stance on another is decidedly 'Left'.

 

[Received]

It is almost purely arbitrary, and these days it's used rhetorically, such as how the right labels people who believe in less conservative or centrist legislation "leftist", when "leftist" technically entails everyone from Bill Clinton (who was arguably centrist, but for the sake of argument) to Noam Chomsky and beyond.

 

[TheReasoner]

Chamdar: If your reference point and observed system is the US, you're right. Of course, even the left in the US is right wing if you expand your frame of reference to the rest of the world, or even the rest of the west. So I do feel the position is somewhat moot. Your "right wing" "celebrate war and bloodshed and have hatred and contempt for the poor " while your left wing is still noticeably right of center... As for the moral nihilism bit... I'm not sure I follow. Upon what do you base that? Fox news' claims that Obama wants more abortions or something like that?

I am not sure I agree with your observations of the left. Of course my frame of reference is different from yours.

 

[oldbetang]

In my opinion, the views of most people on the modern Left and the modern Right are incompatible with Christianity. Most on the Left support moral/cultural nihilism and while most on the Right celebrate war and bloodshed and have hatred and contempt for the poor (and both sides worship Mammon).

You're half right. Most on the Right do not celebrate war and bloodshed and have hatred and contempt for the poor.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

The simplified versions of "left" and "right" don't actually represent the vast majority of people of any political persuasion.

There's no distinction between economic and social issues on such a basic representation. The 'left' is presumed to be economically conservative and socially liberal whilst the 'right' is presumed to be economically liberal and socially conservative. But 'left' and 'liberal' are used interchangeably, as are 'right' and 'conservative'. What if you're both economically and socially 'liberal' or 'conservative'?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The simplified versions of "left" and "right" don't actually represent the vast majority of people of any political persuasion.

There's no distinction between economic and social issues on such a basic representation. The 'left' is presumed to be economically conservative and socially liberal whilst the 'right' is presumed to be economically liberal and socially conservative. But 'left' and 'liberal' are used interchangeably, as are 'right' and 'conservative'. What if you're both economically and socially 'liberal' or 'conservative'?

That is perhaps why some conservatives think it is accurate to place Hitler on the Left. Why? Because according to them, 'Left' simply means 'more Government', and by their reasoning therefore, Hitler is Far Left. However, the Left-Right axis of the political compass represents the degree of Government intervention/control over economic issues only, and NOT the size of Government in general. A Fascist Government can, for example, find itself on the Right (with respect to economy) whereas it is totalitarian in all other respects, particularly socially.

 

[WESTERNdeitySIXmoths]

left right left right left right left right

march, drones

 

[Verv]

Left and Right are relevant but the media often distorts them.

I generally do not talk about centrism because there are few people who really are centrits; a person's political ideals need be rooted in some idea, some concept, and that concept will originate on the left or the right; whether it is the prioritizing of freedom or equality or harmony or whatever is considered the highest value by whom is in question.

Centrism is something that exists for those slithering politicians merely trying to obtain their power and have still managed to delude themselves into thinking that they are working for the common good.

 

[Received]

Yeah, centrism is often a political compromise (either in fact or in claim) that keeps a politician on one side from being naturally disliked by the other side for being on the side he's on. Hence Bush somehow convinced the press that he was a moderate as he was running, even though immediately in office he was for tax cuts to the rich, the privatization of Medicaire, and other classical conservative movements; or Clinton magically shifted to a centrist position after the 1994 Republican overhaul of congress in as a means to get reelected.

But this doesn't mean that centrism is an inherently slithering position. Authentic centrists are hard to find, though.

 

[Verv]

Yeah, centrism is often a political compromise (either in fact or in claim) that keeps a politician on one side from being naturally disliked by the other side for being on the side he's on. Hence Bush somehow convinced the press that he was a moderate as he was running, even though immediately in office he was for tax cuts to the rich, the privatization of Medicaire, and other classical conservative movements; or Clinton magically shifted to a centrist position after the 1994 Republican overhaul of congress in as a means to get reelected.

But this doesn't mean that centrism is an inherently slithering position. Authentic centrists are hard to find, though.

I will agree with all of this but you know Bush did have some semi-leftist ideas on his first election, such as the unprecedented amount of aid that he had promised to Africa and also the standardized tests meant to leave 'no one behind' (hahahaha).

Though admittedly the vouchers were hardly a liberal idea.

 

[Chamdar]

Chamdar: If your reference point and observed system is the US, you're right. Of course, even the left in the US is right wing if you expand your frame of reference to the rest of the world, or even the rest of the west. So I do feel the position is somewhat moot. Your "right wing" "celebrate war and bloodshed and have hatred and contempt for the poor " while your left wing is still noticeably right of center... As for the moral nihilism bit... I'm not sure I follow. Upon what do you base that? Fox news' claims that Obama wants more abortions or something like that?

I am not sure I agree with your observations of the left. Of course my frame of reference is different from yours.

Actually, what I had in mind regarding moral nihilism was how many people on the left (especially in Hollywood) rallied around Roman Polanski, which was/is also hypocritical from an ideological and class-based perspective.

 

[EdwinWillers]

In my opinion, the views of most people on the modern Left and the modern Right are incompatible with Christianity. Most on the Left support moral/cultural nihilism and while most on the Right celebrate war and bloodshed and have hatred and contempt for the poor (and both sides worship Mammon).

To characterize this as a gross generalization would be an effront to gross generalizations.

My goodness - it doesn't even remotely come close to making a shred of sense.

Characterizing myself as being "right of center," I'm appalled to think anyone would so blithely assume I "celebrated war and bloodshed," let alone harbored "hatred and contempt for the poor."

And characterizing those left of center as nihilists, amoral despondents of all life is, well, tempting to want to agree with - but how can one honestly do so?

Good grief. No wonder discourse in the world today has degenerated as it has - into some bizare sound-bite celebration of the inane and absurd.

 

[jgarden]

The American Revolution is a classic example of "nihilism" whereby the colonists unleashed their "violent tendencies" to replace a monarchial system with a republic, that formally separated church and state.

 

[oldbetang]

The American Revolution is a classic example of "nihilism" whereby the colonists unleashed their "violent tendencies" to replace a monarchial system with a republic, that formally separated church and state.

How in the world you could draw that conclusion, I have no idea.

Perhaps, it's just me getting dense as I age.

 

[EdwinWillers]

The American Revolution is a classic example of "nihilism" whereby the colonists unleashed their "violent tendencies" to replace a monarchial system with a republic, that formally separated church and state.

That's preposterously absurd. Good grief.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I think rating things on a scale from 'Anarchy' to 'Totalitarianism' would be more useful.

 

[Chamdar]

To characterize this as a gross generalization would be an effront to gross generalizations.

My goodness - it doesn't even remotely come close to making a shred of sense.

Characterizing myself as being "right of center," I'm appalled to think anyone would so blithely assume I "celebrated war and bloodshed," let alone harbored "hatred and contempt for the poor."

And characterizing those left of center as nihilists, amoral despondents of all life is, well, tempting to want to agree with - but how can one honestly do so?

Good grief. No wonder discourse in the world today has degenerated as it has - into some bizare sound-bite celebration of the inane and absurd.

I never said that they (or you) were all like that.

But I admit that I erred by saying "most."

 

[TheReasoner]

I never said that they (or you) were all like that.

But I admit that I erred by saying "most."

Take a friend of mine. He is a fierce supporter of corporate America. So much so that he even considers indentured servitude, environmental crimes, and de-facto slavery to be good. (no kidding. His argument is: It benefits their economy. "They should thank us!" is normally how he finishes his arguments). He is also a fierce supporter of the Iraq war, and wants an expansion of warfare in the middle east to end "the muslim threat". He is an academic, but despite his education he genuinely believes these things.

He himself would never say anything other than that he "loves peace" and "does what he can to help the poor". Does he do so? No. Far from it.
A lot of people think they do the right thing, they may even have good intentions in mind, but the facts can be quite different.

Actually, what I had in mind regarding moral nihilism was how many people on the left (especially in Hollywood) rallied around Roman Polanski, which was/is also hypocritical from an ideological and class-based perspective.

I don't even know who Roman Polanski is
Like I said though, the American left isn't. Left, that is. It's right wing.
Of course that is not to say that the left wing here is blameless. I'm a socialist myself. At least that's what Americans would call me. That and a liberal. What I ACTUALLY am is something else entirely, but perceptions are what they are.
Regardless, if we analyze the ideologies I believe Christianity - as described by the life and teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles is clearly left of centre.

 

[MacFall]

In my opinion, the views of most people on the modern Left and the modern Right are incompatible with Christianity. Most on the Left support moral/cultural nihilism and while most on the Right celebrate war and bloodshed and have hatred and contempt for the poor (and both sides worship Mammon).

The left-right political spectrum is pure fallacy. There are only two types of people, to paraphrase Robert Heinlein: those who wish to force their will on others, and those who have no such desire. Slavery on one side, liberty on the other. Political association versus voluntary association; the state versus the market; violence and coercion versus peace and freedom.

It doesn't matter which side you choose as authoritarian and which the libertarian, so "left" and "right" are useless terms. And both the "left" and "right" as they are meant by their proponents, being both different shoots from the same authoritarian seed, are on the same side no matter how the dichotomy is labeled.