Leaving a charismatic cult....Is everyone else "APOSTATE" or is that another lie?

psalm232 · May 31, 2013

Hi,
I have left a charismatic cult that was filled with lying signs, lying dreams, a false teacher and tons of (false) prophesy. A large part of the draw and legitimacy of the group was the idea that most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."

From this teachings, I began to believe I was sinning to visit or attend a Christian church or even listen to Christian pastors on the radio- outside of the teacher of the group and a few approved teachers.

I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy.

Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching....or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??

Faulty · May 31, 2013

I've never been taught that at all. Try a Calvary Chapel if you have access to one.

I'm glad you escaped. A lot of people are unable to do so.

Tigger45 · May 31, 2013

The UPC United Pentecostal Church has cult like tendencies. Most Baptist and Calvary Chapel churches have good doctrine. Were you looking to get out of the charismatic churches all together?

Johnnz · May 31, 2013

Whenever a group claims exclusive 'truth' you can be assured they are wrong. Same with instilling fears abut leaving.

John
NZ

lismore · May 31, 2013

psalm232 said:
Hi,
I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy.

I'm with you and have gone some of the same things. I left a pentecostal church after 8 years membership that had gone off the rails..............now fellowshipping in a baptist church.

If there are people there who love the Lord, who speak the truth, who have fellowship with each other and the Holy Spirit then yes, go for it. Be Blessed.

God Bless You

psalm232 · May 31, 2013

Yes, I am leaning towards a Baptist church myself...it's very Word based and they are very kind. After the shunning, finger pointing and all...it seems like a good fit.

I would love to be in a place that accepted and allowed the operation of the gifts...that would be really wonderful. Unfortunately the ones I have visited have been WOF/prosperity/ or "false revival" stuff(which I believe is demonic).

When you're in a group that is against almost EVERYTHING it can be hard to sort out the most important things though. My groups was against tithing, one man led ministry ( hypocritical b/c that's what our group was), patriotism, charging for books/tapes/ materials, going to doctors (not taught expressly- implied), etc etc etc.

For deliverance ministry but this grew way out of balance and out of control as well...became a tool for control and fear....

There is a Calvary Chapel near me but it seems to have some legalism or pre cult behavior (I'm really sensitive towards it now- hopefully not overly so) but I can see and discern it in a dear friend who goes there.

So what does one look for in a healthy church?

I used to look at fervor/ zeal/ being on fire....feeling that the Holy spirit was present- depth in the Word. I'm an intense person...think God is toning that down teaching me balance in Him and not to be led by emotions or sensations

psalm232 · May 31, 2013

Yes, I am leaning towards a Baptist church myself...it's very Word based and they are very kind. After the shunning, finger pointing and all...it seems like a good fit.

I would love to be in a place that accepted and allowed the operation of the gifts...that would be really wonderful. Unfortunately the ones I have visited have been WOF/prosperity/ or "false revival" stuff(which I believe is demonic).

When you're in a group that is against almost EVERYTHING it can be hard to sort out the most important things though. My groups was against tithing, one man led ministry ( hypocritical b/c that's what our group was), patriotism, charging for books/tapes/ materials, going to doctors (not taught expressly- implied), etc etc etc.

For deliverance ministry but this grew way out of balance and out of control as well...became a tool for control and fear....

There is a Calvary Chapel near me but it seems to have some legalism or pre cult behavior (I'm really sensitive towards it now- hopefully not overly so) but I can see and discern it in a dear friend who goes there.

So what does one look for in a healthy church?

I used to look at fervor/ zeal/ being on fire....feeling that the Holy spirit was present- depth in the Word. I'm an intense person...think God is toning that down teaching me balance in Him and not to be led by emotions or sensations

Bob Carabbio · May 31, 2013

Hi,
I have left a charismatic cult that was filled with lying signs, lying dreams, a false teacher and tons of (false) prophesy. A large part of the draw and legitimacy of the group was the idea that most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."

Yup, that's pretty common in TOXIC church groups that are convinced that THEY, and THEY ALONE possess the truth. I heard a lot more of that sort of stupidity back in the '70s, and '80s from the TOXIC Charismatic groups that got into "Domination".

"From this teachings, I began to believe I was sinning to visit or attend a Christian church or even listen to Christian pastors on the radio- outside of the teacher of the group and a few approved teachers."

Just like they WANTED YOU to, of course. Their continuation DEPENDS on isolating you from the larger Christendom, and making you believe that ONLY THEY can properly feed you spiitually.

"I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy."

By All Means - grab yourself a Good Baptist body, and Relax into it - they're NOT going to lead you astray. Their Sunday School activities, can help you start to DISCARD the "PROGRAMMING" that your TOXIC Church shoved in there. Personally, I go to an Assembly of God Church, but coming out of a TOXIC Charismatic cult, The good 'ol Baptists are probably a GOOD choice. It may take quite a LONG time to undo the damage.

Our Pastor and his wife got tangled up in a "Charismatic Cult" 30 years ago, and are STILL shedding the baggage.

"Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching."

It's a VERY COMMON "Cult Teaching"!!!!!

Early On, probably because I Spent a LOT of time in the early '70s reading the Bible through several times, and got pretty familiar with whats in it, AND had some EXCELLENT teaching from folks like Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Malcom Smith, and others, I learned to be wary when a church got to teaching this sort of TOXIC GARBAGE, and GOT OUTTA THERE FAST.

...or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??

Well - they'll tell you that it's "Of the Holy SPirit" - but folks that tell you that will LIE TO YOU about other stuff too. The Holy Spirit IS "Restoring the Church", of course, but He does it in HIS OWN way:

Where the Spirit is, there's PEACE, and Liberty, and open discussion, and freedom.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

salamacum · Jun 1, 2013

Baptist churches when I became a Christian had a reputation for considering themselves the true church and the others were at best compromised either with the world or the flesh if not the devil. were they cults, sectarian?
Shows everything moves on and changes but we don't notice.
Somebody said that Luther and Calvin wouldn't recognise the churches in their name now, in culture if not doctrine.

Bob Carabbio · Jun 1, 2013

"Baptist churches when I became a Christian had a reputation for considering themselves the true church and the others were at best compromised either with the world or the flesh if not the devil."

Sure they did - that's absolutely NORMAL in denominational churces across the board. I wouldn't consider 'em "Cultish", but they're DEFINITLY Sectarian. SOme more than others. No big deal.

DO THE MATH!!! people don't form an organization, print literature, Build colleges, and develop a "distinctive theology" - if they don't think they have something to "sell". EVERY denomination considers themselves the "True Church" whether it's Jehova Witness, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, AoG - you name it.

SOME - Like the Church of Christ (hard line), Catholics, or the United Pentecostals DO consider that THEY ALONE are the true church. Fools like that are EASY to "sign off". Baptists, however, will let Methodists, or Lutherans be Christians too. they just don't believe everything they teach.

If a denomination didn't "consider itself special" in significant ways - then it wouldn't exist AT ALL.

"Somebody said that Luther and Calvin wouldn't recognise the churches in their name now, in culture if not doctrine."

Probably totally true - like the ""Nazarene" church used to say: "We've come a long way past Wesley".

But the simple FACT is that NO "Church organization" is "Non-Denominational. Like the Church of Christ (Campbellite) will fight to the DEATH about being non-denominational, and they're one of the MOST Denominational "Us 4 and NO MORE" groups out there.

An individual Christian CAN be Non-denominational, though. I"ve been a member of Assemblies of God churches for MOST of the last 50 years, but personally, I'm a "Free Range CHarismatic" with eclectic theology, and couldn't care LESS what the AOG teaches, or believes theologically. It so happens that I agree with a good percentage of it - not because it's AoG, but because I see it as "Biblical teaching".

salamacum · Jun 1, 2013

Hello Bob,

It really pains me but I am almost at the point like you of confessing that Christians .......(wait for it)... LIE. It's not just the so-called assurance they know or feel about the rightness of where they are or their 'denomination'. It's the need to not appear vulnerable or weak., whatever they may say about their own sins, or need to be humble. So the Lord is always 'doing something' in their lives. It hurts me to say this to myself but often it is ..... made up. It is not even self-delusion. They don't believe it themselves. If I took one of my pagan work colleagues he'd want 'proof' from the enthousiastic prayer at the back that indeed the Lord has been doing 'wonderful things' this last week.
It's the 'language of zion', babbled from pulpit or in the latest paradigm. And its in the after church fellowship. I've overheard some of these conversations. The Christians can actually use the same terms but have totally different positions about something. Do they mean the same thing when they are talking informally about 'grace' , 'assurance' or even 'salvation'? Just talkiing at each other to be heard.

mourningdove~ · Jun 2, 2013

Bob Carabbio said:
By All Means - grab yourself a Good Baptist body, and Relax into it - they're NOT going to lead you astray. Their Sunday School activities, can help you start to DISCARD the "PROGRAMMING" that your TOXIC Church shoved in there. Personally, I go to an Assembly of God Church, but coming out of a TOXIC Charismatic cult, The good 'ol Baptists are probably a GOOD choice. It may take quite a LONG time to undo the damage.

I think this is very helpful advice.

In many ways, I've returned to my 'Baptist roots', in what became a desperate attempt to recover from some harsh, unbalanced 'elements' I encountered in charismatic circles.

Recovery has been going slowly, but I'm happy to testify that with God it is possible.

For me, 'the key' was to not lose faith in God, just because some of his messed up children behaved so hurtfully ...

... God never did "tell" them, to behave hurtfully towards us.

Bob Carabbio · Jun 8, 2013

Well - "Christians" lie just like anybody else. A good many times it's a "HOPEFUL" lie -

And Word-faith/Prosperity teaching often TEACHES you to LIE - claiming to "Believe" - what you don't really believe, and claiming to have FAITH - in what you really have no faith in. Or claiming "Miracles/Healings" where no Miracles/healings actually took place at all.

I've told the story several times about the fellow in my Bible study, who was sent home to die of Cancer after all the treatments failed. IN all honesty I thought at the beginning that he was a goner, and I think the others in the study did also - he was white, hairless, weak as a kitten, and cold to the touch. WE didn't have faith for his healing -

BUT His Mother claimed to have heard from God, that He'd be healed, and she DIDN'T ask us to pray for his healing - just to thank God for what He had DONE/was going to do. That makes sense since Biblical FAITH KNOWS - even though there no physical evidence - yet. no sense to ASK - for what you already have, don'cha know.

SO we did.

And then he "just got better". In a few weeks, he had color, and his hair was starting to grow in, and in a couple of months, you'd never know he'd ever been sick. and about 9 months later the medical community declared him "Cancer free". That was 1976, or so, and in 2002 (the last I heard) he was STILL cancer free.

psalm232 · Jun 8, 2013

Ah Word of Faith....still trying to get untangled from that one. To my understanding it comes from New Thought which is basically occult...a lot of damage has been done through that teaching...

One friend was "believing for" a healing for decades and was under law to not go to a doctor. Finally she just went....the doctor examined her- found a serious problem. She scheduled the surgery....went back and was then healed- the doctor found no hint of the illness...!!!

But I need to leave the fixation of healing...as it became an IDOL to me- opened the door to false teaching and a false Gospel...have to get my eyes and heart firmly fixed on, abiding in Jesus Christ and not simply His gifts.

It seems that some of the "off" teaching can become sort of Gnostic - spirit is good/ flesh is evil...and can lead to neglect of the body....which the Word warns against. I've been in that place for a while...

I think one of the bigger dangers of WOF healing teaching is the way the focus comes on US and what we prayed, thought, said, believed. Focus on us...leads to WORKS mentality. As in....I did X,Y,Z....why am I not healed?

Or ....I did X,Y, and Z....and God healed me. Both times- the focus is on US. What **I** did. ....

I was taught that it took Abraham 99 years until he really had the faith to believe God. But in re-reading the story...what jumped out was how Abraham was NOT believing God...Sarah laughed....Abraham gave his wife to Pharoah- had a baby with Hagar.....God kept encouraging Abraham....God kept speaking the word and promises. Made me realize that salvation is truly OF THE LORD. And hallelujah for that!!

But as for the original question....I no longer believe it is a SIN to go to church as I was taught.

psalm232 · Jun 8, 2013

Hi Sal....

Sometimes when there has been hurt or spiritual abuse in the Body...looking at Jesus and not His followers is a good place to find healing- for a season. And to remember that the reason for all of the counterfeits...is the true value of the real....just a thought....! Yes, hollow religious talk does not fill the deep yearning for the love, presence, and fruit of the Holy Spirit and the character of Jesus Christ.

And it is such a horrible evil some of the things done in Jesus' name...and those who are truly wolves in sheep's clothing.

This passage literally made me cry. Jesus is saying I am the GOOD shepherd. (Implied...some shepherds are not good...)

7 Therefore Jesus said again, Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Fatherand I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. (Jn 10: 7-14)

God loves you and you are precious to Him.

salamacum said:
Hello Bob,

It really pains me but I am almost at the point like you of confessing that Christians .......(wait for it)... LIE. It's not just the so-called assurance they know or feel about the rightness of where they are or their 'denomination'. It's the need to not appear vulnerable or weak., whatever they may say about their own sins, or need to be humble. So the Lord is always 'doing something' in their lives. It hurts me to say this to myself but often it is ..... made up. It is not even self-delusion. They don't believe it themselves. If I took one of my pagan work colleagues he'd want 'proof' from the enthousiastic prayer at the back that indeed the Lord has been doing 'wonderful things' this last week.
It's the 'language of zion', babbled from pulpit or in the latest paradigm. And its in the after church fellowship. I've overheard some of these conversations. The Christians can actually use the same terms but have totally different positions about something. Do they mean the same thing when they are talking informally about 'grace' , 'assurance' or even 'salvation'? Just talkiing at each other to be heard.

Simon_Templar · Jun 8, 2013

Hi Psalm232,

The Church is full of both genuine good believers and also false believers. Jesus told us to expect this. The fact that there are many false believers does not invalidate the Church.

Look at the parables Jesus says about the wheat and the tares and the fish and the net. Both explicitly say that there are going to be false people, even people planted by the devil in the Kingdom of God, until the end when Jesus returns, then the false believers will be removed.

Jesus is Coming Soon!!! · Jun 12, 2013

I have had a similar experience with listening to a false prophet on shortwave radio. You can read my story here:
sites.google.com/site/jeffsstory429

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 12, 2013

psalm232 said:
Hi,
I have left a charismatic cult that was filled with lying signs, lying dreams, a false teacher and tons of (false) prophesy. A large part of the draw and legitimacy of the group was the idea that most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."

From this teachings, I began to believe I was sinning to visit or attend a Christian church or even listen to Christian pastors on the radio- outside of the teacher of the group and a few approved teachers.

I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy.

Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching....or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??

Before the Reformation, the established Church believed that it was the true Church and every other church was apostate, so the church you have described is nothing new.

What causes a person to be a Christian believer is that he believes the Gospel of Christ, and has accepted Him as Saviour. He believes that Jesus died for him on the Cross to be his substitute for sin, and that He rose from the dead to give him eternal life. If a person believes and accepts that and basis his life on it, then he cannot be apostate no matter what church he decides to go to.

A church that sets itself up to be the "true" church, believing that every other church is apostate, is one that is controlled by a demonic religious spirit and not by the Holy Spirit. There are demonic principalities and powers that control churches and they make sure that they follow the plans and purposes of the enemy in their locality.

The true church is invisible, and is made up of all those who know Jesus as their personal Saviour. It doesn't matter whether they are Charismatic or not. Being Charismatic, or not, does not save a person or make them apostate.

Apostacy is rejecting the Gospel of Christ and refusing to accept Christ as Saviour and Lord. The visible church is very secondary to that. There is a wide range of churches that promote the Gospel and encourage their members to put Christ first as Saviour and Lord. It doesn't matter what the denomination is.

I heard a New Life church pastor tell his congregation that they were the true believers in their town and all Christians in the other churches were not Christian brothers and sisters, but "cousins". If that is the general attitude of the New Life church movement, then I would be fairly confident that the organisation is ruled more by a demonic religious spirit than moved by the Holy Spirit. It was certainly true in that town.

So, when you choose a church, find out whether it is a true fellowship centre with Jesus as Lord of it, or whether it might just be a religious temple (in other words, a synagague of satan).

salamacum · Jun 14, 2013

I suppose what I am saying is that ordinary but earnest Christians just get it wrong in ways that are not blameless.
It is not honouring. Can we remember what it was like to be a non-Christian and listen to people saying things that didn't seem possible or borne out by evidence?
I remember getting a job interview for a Christian women. She had to have a medical. She didn't want one. Eventually she produced some records. Then insisted she DIDN'T have diabetes. And no she wasn't going to have it recorded on her application, because she didn't have it. She didn't get the job.
All the diagnoses are that she still has the diabetes.

jiminpa · Jun 15, 2013

Personally, I wouldn't go to a Baptist church. I spent too long in a non-denominational church that had a Baptist theology, and I was starving to death. The church wasn't bad, but it wasn't really good either.

Leaving a charismatic cult....Is everyone else "APOSTATE" or is that another lie?

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