Leavened or Unleavened?

[Charlesinflorida]

The point is this; The Lord did not institute communion or the Lords supper or whatever you choose to call it. What he said was "When you eat the Matzah of the passover, do so in rememberance of me." My paraphrase. He was speaking in the framework and context of the passover seder that he was having at that moment with his disciples. He never told them to do something different.

You see the church took on all sorts of things that are not scriptural. And that is why you will not find a designation for what type of bread to use for communion, beause there was no such thing at that time. The Jewish people always had a table fellowship, and it usually took place at the close of Shabbat, as the sun was setting. It was the bread of fellowship. This bread is what Paul was refering to Jim. Keep it in context.

Look at some of the other things that were christinaized and added to the faith.
Tabernacles is the God given prophetic feast that points to the birth of Messiah, and Yeshua was in fact born on the first day of Tabernacles. This can be observed in scripture if you have a Hebraic understanding.

But the church which became dominated by Roman authority changed this festival to Dec 25th, with no scriptural foundation at all, but did so because the Pagans all observed this day as the birth of the sun god Mithra. It was for this same reason that the Sabbath was changed to the verniable day of the Sun...Sunday.

The Lord was crucified and died on Passover at the exact same moment that the priests killed the passover lamb in the temple. 3 pm. This was no accident!

But the church changed it to Easter, which was the observance of the fertility godess Eshitar. This Pagan godess was celebrated by symbols of fertility. Eggs were decorrated and rolled along the ground to imbue fertility and assure a good crop. Eggs were hidden in Rabits holes another fertility symbol. And there was a big feast where they slaughtered and roased a pig, (Easter Ham?). Isn't it ironic that the church celebrates the resurrection in the same way as the Pagans worshipped Eshtar/Dianas and then top it off with a big meal of unclean food which the Lord nor the disciple would ever think of eating because it is forbidden. It is traif

And even so, it was on the feast of first fruits that the Lord was raised up in fulfillment of that Prophetic feast. He is the first fruits of many brothers who will be resurrected.

The church all but ignores Pentecost, though it was begining of the church. And it is the time of the renewing of the covenant. And in the new covenant the Torah is to be written on our hearts.

It was in fulfillment of the day of Atonement that our sins were forgiven, not on Easter or Passover for that matter. In Hebrews we are told specifically that Yeshua serving as our high priest entered into the most holy place in heaven not with the blood of animals but with his own precious blood for the cleansing of our sins. How does the church remember this day? It doesn't. It has forgotten it. The blood of the passover was for our deliverance from the penalty of sin and to separate us from the power of Satan. It is Atonement which follows repentance that our sins are finally washed away.

The Lord cautioned us not to try to worship him in the same manner as the Pagans worship their gods, yet that is exactly what the church has done.

Look my friends, it was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt, Jews and Gentiles. And God delivered them from the powers of Satan and he took them to the promised land, which is a picture of heaven or the Kingdom. But before he got them there they stopped at the mountain and received the Law. We are delivered by the passover, entering into the death of Messiah, and we are cleansed when we repent and receive his atonement, and we are sanctified when we learn to live according to his directions (Torah)

There is one God, one Messiah, and one people of God, the redemed community. There is no longer Jew or Gentile. There is only he redemed and those who are not. The redeemed live according to the will of God.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Suddenly quiet? Is this truth too difficult to admit to?

Here is the oath required of Jewish believers in messiah in the 4th century.

Some Proffessions of Faith Required of Jewish Converts.[Quoted from
Prkes, The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue,pp.397-40 :
From the Church of Constantinople [Assemani, Cod.Lit.,I,p.105]...As
a preliminary to his acceptance as a catechumen, a Jew "Must confess
and denounce verbally, the whole of Hebrew people, forthwith declare
that with a whole heart and sincere faith he desires to be received
among the Christians. Then he must renounce openly in the church all
Jewish superstition, the priest saying, and he, or his sponsor if he is
a child, replying in these words:

I renounce all customs, rites, leagalisms, unleavened breads and
sacrifice of lambs of the Hebrew, and all the other feasts of the
Hebrew, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications,sanctifications,
and propitations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and
superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and
the food and drink of the Hebrew; in one word, I renounce absolutely
everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom,...But if it be with
deceit and hypocrisy, and not with a sincere and perfect faith and a
genuine love of Christ, but with pretence to be a Christian that I
come, and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish
superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with
them, or secretly conversing with them and condemning the Christian
religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain
faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave
to me, as well as the anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be
set down with Satan and the devils."

Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, sanctifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath – The Sol Dei [Day of the Sun], all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion.

 

[Jim B]

Suddenly quiet? Is this truth too difficult to admit to?

No Charles. I just don't like your confrontational style.

\o/

 

[Sephania]

Zayit wrote:


No, Z., it just means that I don’t agree with you and your subjective interpretation of the Passover. You are assuming that you’ve got it right. It is very judgmental to tell me (or anyone else) what I believe and don’t believe based on you having so little (like, zero) information about me. To say that I don’t believe Jesus is the Passover Lamb because I don’t agree with your interpretation of what that means is unkind and arrogant. I said why I choose the loaf over the matza and have clearly based my views on scriptural research (see Yesterday 7:32 a.m., page 1) Apparently, the bread Jesus broke was the leavened loaf (artos) and not the unleavened matza (azumos). And it was the loaf (artos) that is the subject of 1 Cor. 10.16, not the the unleavened matza when Paul gives instructions for the observance of the Lord’s Supper. You offer no scriptural basis for your view except your own subjective interpretation of biblical symbols.

You don't have to go for the throat to make your point with me.

Jim
\o/

I apologize Mr. Jim, In no way was I trying to "go for your throat", in fact I have re-read my post several times and still can't figure out how you could take what I said as an attack?

I am also sorry that you feel I have a subjective interpretation of Pesache, but you are entitled to your opinion. I haven't assumed that I have got it right , rather I trust in the Bible to have it right.

The Passover lamb and the unleavened bread feasts go hand in hand and the beginning of the plan of salvation of the Lords was followed by Jesus to the letter.That is all I am saying.

I do also apologize that I did not include any scriptures as I feel that always speaks best, so here goes:

Luke 22
1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


By reading the above we learn that:

A. It was Passover, and the feast of unleavened bread so that there would have been not a scrap of leavened bread in all of Jerusalem at the time nor anywhere in Israel for that matter.
B. Two cups are mentioned and there are is mentioned the one after supper which has a specific name, the cup of redeption.This follows Jewish tradition of the Passover seder.

C. From Jesus own mouth in verse 8 he verifiys that it is Passover and that it needs to be set up and followed.

D. That Jesus will not eat the Passover again until it is celebrated together in the new kingdom. This does not mean that no one else should celebrate it, but now with the fulfilled, or true meaning.

E. Jesus would not tell them to prepare the Passover and then use regular bread, it just didn't exist during that time in Israel.

I hope this has helped.

PS, the word translated from "Unleavened bread" was azymos in verses 1 and 7

But in verse 19 the word translated to bread is artos, BUT does not necessarly mean regular, leavened bread, since it is the Passover and the only type of bread to be found in all Israel is unleavened is would have been redundant to say that he took Unleavened bread and broke it.


When you look at these two together it is understood better.

1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

 

[Godz Marine]

Paul, in I Corinthians 11:24 and 25 quotes the words of Jesus and then in 26 exhorts us further. The word "often" is used twice. The definition of the Greek word translated "often" is; many times, i.e. frequently: -oft(-en, -en-times, -times). The Greek definition of the word translated "oft" is; how many times as: -as oft (-en) as.

Now unless Passover is celebrated more than once a year then Paul was wrong, as was Jesus in encouraging us "as often as we do this". Considering both were Jews and quite familiar with the celebrations and customs of their time I would say that they actually meant that we are to partake of this "supper" more than once or twice a year. The implication would lead us to beleive we are to do this often, frequently, as we purpose to do it, and do it with a pure heart in remeberance of Christ.

 

[Jim B]

Zayit wrote:

I apologize Mr. Jim, In no way was I trying to "go for your throat", in fact I have re-read my post several times and still can't figure out how you could take what I said as an attack? ... etc.

Z., you are real gentlemen and have earned my ear. Thanks for your kind response.

 

[cherokeehippie]

I have to say this--both Native Americans and Jewish people have had to gone thru persecution and abuse from the 'institutional church'. I'm very familiar with the early church history of Constantine and the others who passed laws that forbidded Jewish Believers from celebrating the Feasts. They were forced to eat pork and renounce their heritage. This is very similar to what happened to Native Americans as well. Children were sent off to boarding schools--their hair was cut, they were severely punished if they spoke their native languages. They were forced to become 'europeanized'. Becoming christians was also equated to becoming 'civilized' or becoming like White Europeans. The drum was considered sinful, etc. Satan had a very major hand in this--he wanted to destroy the Body of Messiah--make it all the same. Because of the pain and the generational pain of the severe persecution Jewish people had to go thru, some within the Messianic movement have had bitterness against the institutional church. i don't blame those who did, for I had had the same, coming from a background of Indian background. It is out of bitterness, that some, will persist that nonJewish believers need to observe the Feasts, it's a kind of reverse deal--saying, Okay, you guys forbidded us from observing our Feasts back then, we're gonna get back at ya and say "you gotta start observing the Feasts or you're going to hell'. I feel like it's that kind of scenario. I pray that Creator will continue to heal us all of our wounds, thru His Son, Messiah Yeshua/Tsisa(cherokee word for Yeshua/Jesus)

 

[Sephania]

Zayit wrote:


Z., you are real gentlemen and have earned my ear. Thanks for your kind response.

Thank you Sir, I could not ask for more.

 

[IKTCA]

.

 

[Godz Marine]

I can’t believe I’m posting a message during the Super Bowl!!

But I have a question: Should we use only unleavened bread in the Communion or does it matter? Our church uses a loaf of bread (leavened) from which the members break off a piece and dip into the cup during the observance. This past Sunday someone objected, insisting that next month we use unleavened bread – to her it represents the sinless body of Christ -- like those little communion pieces they sell 1,000-to-a-box down at the bookstore (is that really “bread”?) or, maybe, get some Matza, or even use Saltines (like my old church used to do).

I’m inclined to stick to the leavened bread unless someone can give a biblical reason to do otherwise.

Concerning the Lord's Supper, or communion, Jesus attempted to get us to get our eyes off the natural and on the spiritual. If we spend our time looking through legalistic eyes and focusing on natural things like which type of bread or what is in the cup we completely miss the fact that in reality it is not what type the bread is but what the bread and blood represents and what they have done for uis and what they mean to us, or are to mean to us..

Eating and drinking in an unworthy manner does not mean we are eating the wrong type of bread nor drinking the wrong stuff out of the cup. An unworthy manner is one of eating and drinking for purposes other than remembering Christ. It is one that does not consider that He was wounded and bruised because of our sickness and sin. By His stripes we were healed. By the outpouring of His blood the price of redemption for the world has been paid in full, however many do not recieve it due to an unpure heart.

What difference does it make what type of bread we eat if one partakes of this supper with an unworthy heart? Just the same as what difference do the gifts make if we do not have love? What difference do our actions make if we have impure thoughts? Again, I fully believe we need to focus on true Spiritual meanings instead of bickering over natural functions and forms. Once we begin to set our eyes and hearts on true Spiritual things we will find we do not even have to concern ourselves with fulfilling natural things such as the law of the Ten Commandments because we will already be walking them out as we purpose to walk by the Spirit.

IMHO

 

[Sephania]

iktca, your post was very inspiring, it is indeed the heart of the law we must strive for not the letter.

I do have a question r two about somethings you wrote though, would you please explain to me?

Jesus' apostle teaches us that Jesus' commands are weightier than the commands that angels proclaimed to Israelites. If anyone disobeyed the command, "Just say yes or no," he committed a greater sin than disobeying all the laws of Moses. Anyone who disobeyed the command, "Do to a neighbor as you do to yourself," deserves a greater punishment than those who disobeyed every Sabbath law.

Actually I have several,

1. Who is the Apostle that you are referring to in the opeing of this paragraph?

2. What are these "commands given by angels" and where can I find this?
3. You said that

"Anyone who disobeyed the command, "Do to a neighbor as you do to yourself," deserves a greater punishment than those who disobeyed every Sabbath law"

And then:

Jesus' commands are ten thousand times weightier than Old Testament commands.

By this do you mean that the "Love your neighbor as yourself " command is a New Testament command? Because if you do may I politly point out that this was given to the Children of Israel on Mt Sinai and can be found in Leviticus 19. This was the second greatest commandment, and the first was the Shema, taught to them right before going into the promised land.

Also you said this:

Jesus' commands are ten thousand times weightier than Old Testament commands. But none of us live in condemnation, though we constantly disobey at least several of Jesus' commands at any given time. How can this be?

By "weightier" do you mean more strict? If so then I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[IKTCA]

I am sorry that my previous post was disturbing to you. I already regret that I wrote it. However inspired/inspiring it might be, it still came out of my mouth. What is man's saying worth? I ask the Lord to teach us all that we desire to learn. And I trust he will.

 

[enoch son]

C.F. I enjoy your post about the dumb things the chruch has done. I do not believe that ALL the law is on my heart to live by. There are just 2 laws that the Lord put on my heart. Love God and to love others. As for the Lord supper I try to input what's it's about but it fall on deaf ears. 1 COR. 29-32 " FOR HE WHO EATS AND DRINKS, EATS AND DRINKS JUDGEMENT TO HIMSELF, IF HE DOES NOT JUGDE THE BODY RIGHTLY. 30. FOR THIS REASON MANY AMONG YOU ARE WEAK AND SICK, AND A NUMBER SLEEP. 31. BUT IF WE JUGDED OURSELVES RIGHTLY, WE SHOULD NOT BE JUGDED. 32. BUT WHEN WE ARE JUGDED, WE ARE DISCIPLINED BY THE LORD IN ORDER THAT WE MAY NOT BE CONDEMED ALONG WITH THE WORLD". The person in brother Jim church has not jugde themself rightly and is danger of the weakness and sickness. If you go down and take the supper because it's a rite, you better think twice! You better have your body right your mind right or you will bring jugdement on yourself.