K4c, well said brother...
Stryder, I really like your new signature. Let's not be ashamed of who we are and what we believe.
Matt 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
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The seventh day of creation was blessed, sanctified and called holy. God said it was very good. This sounds like something a godly person would see as a special day in the eyes of God with or without a law. If you need a law to see the seventh day as special then you need to reevaluate your relationship with God. Some people believe that once the law points out a right the law is taken away and that right no longer is right.
K4c, well said brother...
Stryder, I really like your new signature. Let's not be ashamed of who we are and what we believe.
Matt 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Where exactly does scripture say Christians "kept" Sunday?
Not keep in the Old Covenenat sense but GATHER together for "Christian worship".
1 Cor 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given ORDER to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come
"As I ( Paul ) have given order"....
...According to Strong's that is synonymous with issuing a command.
...Now of course there are those who maintain St Paul didn't have that kind of authority.
The following fundies have generated a video on this very text.
1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.
Some people use this verse to say a church offering was taken on the first day so they must have been in church but a quick look at this verse we will see this is not what Paul was saying. Paul was going away but when he returned he was going to take some supplies to the saints in Jerusalem. The important words in this verse are the words, 'Lay by him in store'. People interpret these words to mean a church offering but this is not so. These words, 'Lay by him in store' are referring to getting things together from home such as water, food, livestock or whatever else the suffering saints in Jerusalem would need. Some Bible translations make it clear.
Darby Bible Translation1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come.
Weymouth New Testament1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week let each of you put on one side and store up at his home whatever gain has been granted to him; so that whenever I come, there may then be no collections going on.
International Standard Version1 Corinthians 16:2 After the Sabbath ends, each of you should set aside and save something from your surplus in proportion to what you have, so that no collections will have to be made when I arrive.
Paul knew how getting all this stuff together from their homes and barns would be labor intensive and time consuming so he specifically tells them to do it on the first day, rather than, on the Sabbath day.
The church in those days did not just drop money into a collection plate. Offerings were often made in food or other goods. These kind of collections were a labor intensive process not suitable for the sabbath. That this practice ultimately led to the tradition on worshipping on Sunday is certainly a possibility, but Paul was not commanding here that a Sunday assembly was to replace a Saturday assembly.
Soldier of the King said:Also, this command was specifically related to Paul's visit. It is quite a jump to make this a universal command to all Christians at all times everywhere.
Not keep in the Old Covenenat sense but GATHER together for "Christian worship".
1 Cor 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given ORDER to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come
"As I ( Paul ) have given order"....
...According to Strong's that is synonymous with issuing a command.
...Now of course there are those who maintain St Paul didn't have that kind of authority.
Can't say that I do. Which is one reason why I don't understand why they call it the Christian "sabbath". Either way, that has nothing to do with the premise for my question.
The thing is that if the disciples would have made sunday the new sabbath, it would have been just that, a sabbath.
I often wonder that people say that means to gather their money together at their homes on the first day of the week. That makes no sense to me. If they were to gather money together at home on a "secular" day wouldn't the sixth day of the week make more sense, since it was the day before they supposedly gathered together?
I maintain they were assembling themselves on the first day of the week. Likewise, I don't see any indication they were keeping a sabbath rest on that day.
How does the definition of "keep" change from one covenant to the next?Not keep in the Old Covenenat sense but GATHER together for "Christian worship".
1 Cor 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given ORDER to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come
"As I ( Paul ) have given order"....
...According to Strong's that is synonymous with issuing a command.
...Now of course there are those who maintain St Paul didn't have that kind of authority.
I agree with you.
Christians from the very start of the movement have been gathering on the first day of the week.
I really don't mind the term "Christian Sabbath, though. While we don't try in any way try to rest like the commandment says, the term does indicate for whom the Sabbath command was given, and to whom it was not. Kind of a celebratory phrase proclaiming our freedom in Christ.
It's interesting that your premise of Sunday worship is based on such an ambiguous passage.... no sense letting a clear 'thus sayeth the Lord' get in the way of such an important matter such as when to worship the God of the universe. He always seemed, to me anyway, to be kinda particular on the day thing, at least in the OT... maybe He changed His mind and and said 'forget it, any day you chose will be fine with me, sorry for being such an ogre in the past'... I'm sure thats how it went down, thanx for the enlightenment...
Stryder said:Sorry Pythons, but this isn't a direct statement, which is what I asked for, nor does this text prove that they were gathering together for worship. Last time I checked, even for Sunday services, you didn't set money aside, but you gave it away
Stryder said:This is the point I've been trying to make for years on this forum. For whatever reason, when we try to show principles that surround the need for keeping the sabbath, we're told that we're: proof-texing, taking it out of context, using extra-biblical sources, etc. However, the keeping of sunday, in any sense, is no where near hinted at, but yet, it's ok for you to make those implications without it being proof-texting, taking it out of context, using extra-biblical sources, etc?
Stryder said:Even if we do disagree, at least we can be fair about it. You can't chage me with the same thing you're doing, and say that I'm not understanding scripture properly, while you're using the same technique (FYI: I don't mean you as in you Pythons, but as in a general sense).
Paul's "order" was for that all Christians to have their donations with them...
...And that the day they would have those donations with them was on the 1st day of the week.
Lay [ G5087 ]
1) to set, put, place
a) to place or lay
b) to put down, lay down
By [ G3844 ]
1) from, of at, by, besides, near
Him
1) himself, herself, itself, themselves
In store
1) to gather and lay up, to heap up, store up
The order was for that each person to have "with them" what they could give as donations....
....By their side ( at ,on their person ) on the 1st day of the week.
....It is logical to assume the day a Priest sees everyone.
....Would be the same day EVERYONE gathers for worship.
On the first day of the week everyone is gathered together ( at the same place )...
....And everyone has what they are giving right next to them.
....So when St paul gets there ( where everyone IS ).
....There is no gathering ( people leaving to get their donation ).
I don't know how many churches there were in Galatia & Corinth...
...I do know however ALL of those churches were assembling on the 1st day of the week.
Again, you're assumption that the Apostles forsok the perpetual covenant God gave to them, is based on nothing but assumptions given you by your church. There is no documenation to back it up. The use of scripture to defend this stance is based on implications surrounding the few instances we see of corporate sunday gatherings.All I'm saying is that is we are to;
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" 2 Thess 2, 15
And that the Tradition of Christian assembly on Sunday is straight from the Apostles themselves....
....I have no beef with SDA's going to church on Saturday.
....I do that ( go on Saturday ) all the time.
That's cool Stryder, you are all good with me...
...I just don't want you ( or any SDA's ) thinking at some point in the future.
...Catholics are going to torture you because you feel like you need to go to church on Saturday.
I'm no historian but even if you try to dismiss the Bible saying they put away money on the first day of the week, and John mentioned the Lord's day and whatever, I've seen quotes saying there is historical records of Christians meeting on Sunday from at least about the year 100AD if not before.[=Stryder06;58938741]Could you please explain to me what you mean by "..the very start of the movement..."?
And you say it's a celebratory phrase proclaiming your freedom in Christ; does that mean that no one else had freedom in Christ while they were keeping the sabbath?
The one issue I just can't get past is how on one hand it is proclaimed that the sabbath was given to the Jews as a sign between them and God, but than suddenly the Jewish belivers just cast that sign off, even though it was to be a perpetual covenant between them and God? Too many things just don't make sense when you really sit down and look at it
Python's you're missing my point. I don't want to argue this with you. What I'm saying is that you are indeed, implying that they were gathering together, based on what you consider to be strong evidence. We obviously see this differently. What I was hoping you would see is that what you're doing is no different then what you accuse us as Adventist, of doing.
Stryder said:Again, you're assumption that the Apostles forsok the perpetual covenant God gave to them, is based on nothing but assumptions given you by your church. There is no documenation to back it up. The use of scripture to defend this stance is based on implications surrounding the few instances we see of corporate sunday gatherings.
Stryder said:I really do wish it wouldn't come to that. History however will slowly repeat itself. And unfortunately, your church doesn't exactly have the best track record in regards to dealing with people who have a differnent view than them. The bible points out who the beast is. And the Beast, will have the world in it's pocket, and declare death upon those who do not worship it. Don't you think I would like to believe that it's all gonna be gravy till Christ returns? The fact is that the word of prophecy is sure, and that word tells us that hard times are a'comin.
I swear to you Stryder, it will never come to that.....
...We may each however suffer execution when / if Islam covers the world in it's blackness.
....Those folks have no problem at all killing over religion.
I'm no historian but even if you try to dismiss the Bible saying they put away money on the first day of the week, and John mentioned the Lord's day and whatever, I've seen quotes saying there is historical records of Christians meeting on Sunday from at least about the year 100AD if not before.
Did I or anyone say that Jewish converts to Christianity immediately quit keeping the Sabbath? They could certainly continue keeping the Sabbath as well as the other days given to Israel. That is why there are multiple verses concerning the keeping of days in the Epistles saying don't judge one another.
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