LDS Tithing is not forced, however...

[skylark1]

I wonder if we all tend to get so caught up in the "what" at times, that we overlook the "why."

When the Israelites entered the land, and the Lord told them to bring and offer the first fruits of what they produced, was it because God desired the fruits and grains so much, or was it because He wanted to teach the Israelites to be grateful to God, to keep Him foremost in their minds, and to help them be aware that every good gift comes from Him. If it was a principle that the Lord was teaching them, then wouldn't He desire to teach that to all?

I think that we need to remeber that this was an agrarian society. For people to be fed, people didn't give money but food.

Deuteronomy 26

12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.​

In this verse isn't the principle of giving to the poor who need it what is of importance? In our day, I know that we don't expect only the farmers to give to feed the needy, rather most of us believe that we are all our brother's keeper, and that it is our Christian duty to help to feed the hungry.

 

[BarryK]

Did the Jews corrupt the Old Testament/Tanakh? When did that take place?

the overwhelmng evidence is that they did an extroadnary job preserving it
this is especially noteable whe you compare the small handful of changes o( in spelling and gramer) over thousands of years as compared to the threethousandninehundredand thirteen changes in another popular book

 

[Rescued One]

I wonder if we all tend to get so caught up in the "what" at times, that we overlook the "why."

When the Israelites entered the land, and the Lord told them to bring and offer the first fruits of what they produced, was it because God desired the fruits and grains so much, or was it because He wanted to teach the Israelites to be grateful to God, to keep Him foremost in their minds, and to help them be aware that every good gift comes from Him. If it was a principle that the Lord was teaching them, then wouldn't He desire to teach that to all?

I think that we need to remeber that this was an agrarian society. For people to be fed, people didn't give money but food.

Deuteronomy 26

12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.​

In this verse isn't the principle of giving to the poor who need it what is of importance? In our day, I know that we don't expect only the farmers to give to feed the needy, rather most of us believe that we are all our brother's keeper, and that it is our Christian duty to help to feed the hungry.

I believe that Christians are free and led by the Holy Spirit to give generously to the needy and to other good causes. Sometimes we give money, sometimes canned goods, other times a cup of water, used clothing, new clothing, books, pencils, soap, etc. I know I was outdoors one hot summer day when the trash collector asked if he could have some Tylenol. I got him the Tylenol and a tall glass of ice water. Sometimes we scrub floors for one who is ill or shovel the snow for the elderly. The Christian life is one of service to others.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Matthew 25:40)

However, the topic of this thread is about tithing rather than giving. Do you believe that Christians are commanded to tithe?

You say it was an agrarian society. Were there no skilled workers? They say that skilled workers built the Egyptian pyramids. Also, were there no potters or metal workers among the Israelites? Who had the skills to make a golden calf before entering the promised land?

 

[skylark1]

However, the topic of this thread is about tithing rather than giving.

My post was about tithing.

You say it was an agrarian society. Were there no skilled workers? They say that skilled workers built the Egyptian pyramids. Also, were there no potters or metal workers among the Israelites? Who had the skills to make a golden calf before entering the promised land?

I did not suggest, not did I claim that there were no skilled workers. Saying that it was an agrarian society does not mean that.

Agrarian society: An agrarian society is one that is based on agriculture as its prime means for support and sustenance. The society acknowledges other means of livelihood and work habits but stresses on agriculture and farming, and was the main form of socio-economic organization for most of recorded human history.

Agrarian society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

 

[RufustheRed]

Ran (or anyone else), were you going the help me out with my questions in post #57?

Can/will you tell us when tithing was instituted? Do you have evidence that tithing was instituted befored it was written into the Mosiac law?

Can/will you tell if the tithes received by your church is to support the Levites who are the only ones authorized to enter the temple?

Thanks.

Rufus

 

[Rescued One]

My post was about tithing.

I did not suggest, not did I claim that there were no skilled workers. Saying that it was an agrarian society does not mean that.

Agrarian society: An agrarian society is one that is based on agriculture as its prime means for support and sustenance. The society acknowledges other means of livelihood and work habits but stresses on agriculture and farming, and was the main form of socio-economic organization for most of recorded human history.

Agrarian society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

I know what an agrarian society is. The command to tithe was to the farmers/landowners.

 

[skylark1]

I know what an agrarian society is.

Then there should have been no need to ask:

"You say it was an agrarian society. Were there no skilled workers? They say that skilled workers built the Egyptian pyramids. Also, were there no potters or metal workers among the Israelites? Who had the skills to make a golden calf before entering the promised land?"​

I think that you missed the point of my post.

 

[Ran77]

If the Bible is truly missing many plain and precious things as Joseph Smith claimed, then there would possibly be some merit to what you say.

No. There is merit in what I said, because it is silly to think that the Bible has clearly defined all situations, contains every last word that God has said, and has sketched out every event that relates to His dealings with man. What I have said doesn't depend on what Joseph said at all.

However, you may dismiss it. I'm unconcerned either way.

However, there is the risk of following a false gospel as Paul warned the Galatians. Teaching the need for tithing of money in order to have eternal life is not mentioned in the Bible and God calls individuals liars who add to His word. Even Jews who attend synagogues today are not commanded to tithe their incomes.

First, during our discussion, your posts have been the only ones to "add" anything to the scriptures. But thank you for pointing this out.

If you don't want to pay tithing - don't. I'm not seeing that anyone is trying to force this principle upon you. If you have a problem with giving to the Lord a portion of what is His - then that's your thing.

On my part, everything belongs to the Lord and I don't mind giving a tenth of it over to His stewards to help in the important work of the Kingdom. I happen to be grateful of the blessings and lessons it has introduced into my life. The biggest of all which is pointing out that it's just money. Voluntarily giving up a portion of the wealth that I bring in allows me to put it in perspective. Most importantly, it has made me the master of these material things instead of becoming my master, or even my god. Through tithing I know that I am not just merely paying lip service to my faith and dedication to the Lord.

Did the Jews corrupt the Old Testament/Tanakh? When did that take place?

I don't know. I wasn't there and I am not scholarly enough on this subject to be able to give an accurate answer.

But you bring up an important point, since the Jews reject the New Testament, do they follow the law of tithing, of sacrifice, and many other practices that we see in the Bible? I don't know of them sacrificing sheep. None of my Jewish friends mention those rituals as being actively practiced. Are they doing all of these things? If not, can you tell me when they corrupted the Old Testament? Or are you indicated that the Old Testament is corrupted if it doesn't list the practices which the Jews currently participate in today?

 

[Rescued One]

If you don't want to pay tithing - don't. I'm not seeing that anyone is trying to force this principle upon you. If you have a problem with giving to the Lord a portion of what is His - then that's your thing.

All of what I have belongs to the Lord. I expressed no desire to not give a tenth of what is His to Him. I'm saying:

1. That a tithe is not a requirement for eternal life
2. That giving a tenth is not a commandment under the New Covenant
3. That under the Old Covenant it was to be of grain or every tenth animal that passed under the rod (And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD) Lev. 27:32. IOW, if you had only nine animals, the Lord did not expect a tithe of your livestock.
4. There are no Levites that need our tithes (The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in 70 AD)

On my part, everything belongs to the Lord and I don't mind giving a tenth of it over to His stewards to help in the important work of the Kingdom. I happen to be grateful of the blessings and lessons it has introduced into my life. The biggest of all which is pointing out that it's just money. Voluntarily giving up a portion of the wealth that I bring in allows me to put it in perspective. Most importantly, it has made me the master of these material things instead of becoming my master, or even my god. Through tithing I know that I am not just merely paying lip service to my faith and dedication to the Lord.

The person who does not tithe may be giving more than ten percent to help others.

But you bring up an important point, since the Jews reject the New Testament, do they follow the law of tithing, of sacrifice, and many other practices that we see in the Bible? I don't know of them sacrificing sheep. None of my Jewish friends mention those rituals as being actively practiced. Are they doing all of these things? If not, can you tell me when they corrupted the Old Testament? Or are you indicated that the Old Testament is corrupted if it doesn't list the practices which the Jews currently participate in today?

I don't believe the OT is corrupted. There is no longer a temple or a Levite priest to receive the tithe of grain or animal.

When did the tithe change from grain and animal to money?

 

[skylark1]

I know what an agrarian society is. The command to tithe was to the farmers/landowners.

There is an indication in 2 Chronicles that tithing wasn't limited to agriculteral products.

2 Chronicles 31

4 He ordered the people living in Jerusalem to give the portion due the priests and Levites so they could devote themselves to the Law of the LORD. 5 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything. 6 The men of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things dedicated to the LORD their God, and they piled them in heaps.​

It isn't consistent to assume that God would require only those who grew agricultural products to give a tenth of them, while excusing everyone else from doing so.

Proverbs 3:9 mentions honoring God with both wealth and the first of one's produce.

Honor the LORD from your wealth
And from the first of all your produce​

Today's society is much different than that of the Old, or even the New Testament. In most of the modern world the fruit of our labors is money. It makes no senes to expect a currency based economy to tithe in grains and animals.

That is similar to what i was trying to say before that in OT times, Israel was an agrarian society, and it made sense to speak of tithes being in agricultural products.

If the discussion isn't going to follow this level of silliness, I don't see a need to participate. Unless, we throw all pretense away and let the humor fall where it may. Let's all tell silly jokes and forget the exchange of ideas.

That's probably a bad idea, unless people are more concerned with mocking others than discussing.

 

[Rescued One]

Skylark, please answer the question I asked you earlier.

Do you believe that Christians are commanded to tithe?

There is an indication in 2 Chronicles that tithing wasn't limited to agriculteral products.

2 Chronicles 31

4 He ordered the people living in Jerusalem to give the portion due the priests and Levites so they could devote themselves to the Law of the LORD. 5 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything. 6 The men of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things dedicated to the LORD their God, and they piled them in heaps.​

It isn't consistent to assume that God would require only those who grew agricultural products to give a tenth of them, while excusing everyone else from doing so.

There is no tithe mentioned other than of the herds and flocks and produce from the land.

Those who had produce and herds, but couldn't easily transport them were to sell them, take the money to the Levite cities, and buy produce or animals there to give to the Levites. The Levites gave 1% (a tenth of a tenth) to the priests who offered up the sin sacrifices. Those priests were not required to tithe.

Deuteronomy 12

17 You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts.

There was a second tithe for the feasts. That tithe was to be eaten by the worshipers.

Proverbs 3:9 mentions honoring God with both wealth and the first of one's produce.

Honor the LORD from your wealth
And from the first of all your produce​

Honoring God with our wealth(which is really His) is good even if it is not the tithe.

2 Corinthians 9
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Give so that there is equality:

2 Corinthians 8
8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. 9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: 15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

 

[Rescued One]

Maybe this will be helpful:

37. Tithes - Maaser
After setting aside the heave-offering for the priests one sets aside a tenth of the remainder for the Levites; this is called the first tithe. Anyone can eat it, even an Israelite who is impure, once the tithe of the tithe has been set aside from it. Ezra ordained that the tithe should be given to the priests rather than the Levites.a
Halacha-Overview Chapter 37. Tithes - Torah.org


38. Second Tithe and Fourth-Year Fruit - Maaser Sheni ve-Neta Revai
a) The Second Tithe
After setting aside the first tithe one sets aside a tenth of the remainder; this is called the second tithe (but in the third and sixth years of the sabbatical cycle it is given to the poor). When the Temple exists it should be eaten in Jerusalem, as it says "And you shall eat before Ha-Shem your G-d in the place that he shall choose... the tithe of your grain, wine and oil"1; or it can be redeemed (outside Jerusalem) for 5/4 of its value and the proceeds used to buy food to be eaten in Jerusalem [as it says "And if the way is too long for you... you may put [it] into money...] and you may give the money for anything that you desire... and eat there...".1 When the Temple does not exist it can still be redeemed outside Jerusalem, not necessarily for its full value, and the thing that it is redeemed for must be destroyed. It is forbidden to eat it outside Jerusalem (rabbinically, even if it has never been there), as it says "You shall not eat the tithe of your grain, wine and oil in your gates".2,a
Halacha-Overview Chapter 38. Second Tithe and Fourth-Year Fruit - Torah.org