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LDS LDS, The Father, and the Trinity

BigDaddy4

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Okay;

First I need to apologize I was wrong about the first time Paul wrote about his experience in 1Cor 9. It is felt Paul wrote this between 53-54 AD so maybe 20 years afterwards.

You are wrong about a lot of things. Let me show you...

Irrelevant. King Agrippa was a Roman. He may or may not have known the Aramaic or Hebrew language, or that God usually spoke to his people (the Jews) in that language. Acts 9 & 22 were to fellow Jews, who did know that.

2, was it all of them fallen or just Saul falling and who was standing where?

What are you talking about?? They all fell to the ground, including Saul. No inconsistancy there. His companions may have gotten up after that and therefore "stood speechless".

Wow, big whoop!

3, It actually does not say he saw Jesus, you don’t know that until Ananias say he saw him.

Here you are just flat out wrong.

Acts 9:5 “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. (Ananias isn't introduced until verse 10)
Acts 22:8 “ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. (Ananias isn't introduced until verse 12)
Acts26:15 “ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. (No mention of Ananias. King Agrippa probably didn't know the guy, so who cares?)


Again, flat out wrong.

Acts 9:7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone
Acts 22:9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

His companions heard the voice or sound, but not know who it was. No inconsisitancy here. Move along...

5, Act 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
Act 22 & 26 There is no mention of the three days and his fasting.


So? Does not change any of the details of the other accounts, nor provide evidence of any inconsistancy.

Laying on of hands and being filled with the Holy Spirit are unimportant to repeat. Verse 22:10:
"‘Get up,’ the Lord said, ‘and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do."
That covers that error of yours.

As for the scales, let's take a closer look:
Acts 9:18 "Immediately"
Acts 22:13 "At that very moment"
"the same hour" does not mean it took an hour. The Greek words used here mean "the same time" or "that very moment"

No inconsistancy here...



Selecting texts out of context does not prove your point. In Acts 9:16, Jesus tells Ananais that He will "show him how much he must suffer for my name." In verse 19 "Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus". Do you think Jesus lied or do you think during the several days Saul was shown his purpose? Do you think Ananais was one of those disciples?

He doesn’t even mention being blind for three days and forgets Ananias altogether .

And why would that information be important to King Agrippa?

I could get pickyer but I think this makes my point.

Please, by all means, get pickier. I would love to show you the error of your ways.

The sad thing is, the lds have to attack the Bible in order to attempt to make their points or make their version of doctrine seem better. The Bible has stood the test of time and will continue to.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Peter1000

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It has been tried lots of times over the years with a 100% success rate, and about 20% of those hearing the truth, pray and get a confirmation from God, then join the church. The Mormon church is the fastest growing world-wide church in the world. Our success rate is astonishing, and that is the facts. Most Christian churches are reporting a decrease in their numbers, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is exploding. Don't get left behind because of a few inconsistencies and lies about a persons history.
 
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Peter1000

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You know we are not attacking the bible. We use the KJV Paul story to illistrate the point that the JS story has parallel aspects. So if you are so willing to attack the JS story for inconsistencies, you will eventually attack the bible for the same inconsistencies. I won't.

We are just willing to call an inconsistency an inconsistency without losing our faith in the bible. The bible is full of inconsistencies, but we are willing to overlook them as human error, not Holy Spirit error. The Paul story, as much as you can spin it with other translations is all fun and games, but the truth stands, that there are inconsistencies in Paul's story in the KJV.

Do I look at those inconsistencies and declare the bible to be unbiblical or untruthful, NO! The bible is the Word of God and even with it's inconsistencies I believe it.

We believe that Paul saw and heard Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus.

We believe that JS saw God and His Son Jesus Christ in upstate New York.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Ya know this thing about Paul not actually seeing Jesus but only hearing a voice until Ananias says he saw Jesus is a good point. I've read anti Mormon material which claims the Book of Mormon witnesses were fooled simply by the power of suggestion, hey maybe this was an angel of light? I could write a good anti Christian pamphlet just using the same arguments they use against Joseph.
 
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fatboys

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So that is your answer to the two accounts of what happened being different? That it would have seemed rehearsed if the accounts were the same?
No. It's like today I was picking up some tools at harbor freight. I met a neighbor that heard about my event. He asked what happened. I told him ne of Jeffs cows had a mission before it died and that was to run over me. He asked why and do I said she was sick and I got her up and she turned on me eventually pinning me to the ground. Now could have spent more time trekking him the details but he wasn't interested in hearing anything more than what I told him. And I have shortened even more depending on where I am and how much time I have. That is my point. By the way the cow died.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Does the owner of the cows pay for all this?
 
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Peter1000

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Nice report on this Painesville reporter.

The idea that the first vision would not be taught to the members of the church until around 1835 is a silly fabrication of the facts. The first vision and the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon were the 2 main elements of the early church. If is specifically because people believed in the first vision and the BOM that people joined the church. It is why they are joining the church today.

So thanks for this information.
 
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BigDaddy4

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No, those are your unsubstantiated, unproven claims about your church and are off topic to the thread.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Either knowingly or unknowingly, the lds religion attacks the Bible with things like it's lost precious truths, that the lds has the "restored" gospel, and "as far as it is translated correctly". That last one just oozes irony when compare to the BOM! In addition, if the "official" first vision account is true, then the Bible is in error and God a liar since no man has seen the face of God and lived.


There may be differences in each of Paul's story, but certainly not inconsistencies. And certainly not to the magnitude of all the first vision accounts, whether you believe the sources or not (there are inconsistencies in JS's own first person, handwritten accounts. Tough to explain that one away!). The "facts" of JS's age, the dates of a revival, his purpose for going into the woods, who or what he saw while there, etc. are all inconsistent. You are desperately reaching if you think that compares to whether or not Paul's companions were standing or on the ground, etc. in any way alter the story.

We believe that Paul saw and heard Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus.

We believe that JS saw God and His Son Jesus Christ in upstate New York.

You are free to believe what you want, even if it is not the truth.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Only each time in Acts, Jesus identified himself. Not so with Smith's versions. There is never a "dark cloud" when Jesus appeared. In addition, this vision was independantly affirmed by Ananias, before it happened and before Paul and Ananias had even met. Not so with the Smith version.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Interesting. This version is not on the official lds website. Are you sure it's legit? According to the lds webiste, the 1832 account is the earliest known account.

1827 is the first year I can find where there is a reference to the first vision account, but the lds don't like those accounts.

And again, more baseless, unsubstantiated claims about your church. Is this a desperate attempt to prove your point?
 
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fatboys

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Does the owner of the cows pay for all this?
I wish. I guess I could have him go through his his farm insurance. I'll have to ask. I did bring a gun to put the cow down if it was still alive. I had a couple of neighbors feed for a few days befofpre the owner came and took them home. Even though the cow was dead I still shot her. A bit morbid but I did feel better. Lol. Just kidding.
 
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ToBeLoved

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So the things they are writing about here are not even LDS doctrine, but other stuff?

I think they need to include URL's so we can double-check everything.
 
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withwonderingawe

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So the things they are writing about here are not even LDS doctrine, but other stuff?

I think they need to include URL's so we can double-check everything.

It's really difficult to discuss things with you when you jump to conclusion, what would an article in a news paper which wasn't accurate have anything to do with Mormon doctrine? Mormon history yes but not doctrine.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Why don't you share with us some of these numbers that show the church is exploding? I'm sure there are studies out there that can confirm.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I found this part of your post about Christians being 'left behind' and wondered what this is about.

As believers in Christ, our roots are solidly in Jesus CHrist being the Son of God and salvation through Him in His blood. So how could a Christian be left behind?
 
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