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There seed DID inherit the land, just not the generation that worshipped the Golden Calf. Seed is descendants. ,Numbers 14:23 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
Here is the original promise:
Genesis 12:7
7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: (no conditions) and there builded he an altarunto the Lord, who appeared unto him. (The prophecy)
Here God is letting Moses know that even though He promised their fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob),
that their seed would inherit this land
He is not going to keep that promise for those seed that disobeyed Him. (the condition that changed the prophecy).
So you think a perfect, just and righteous God is brothers with the fallen angel He created who sinned and rebelled against God?How does that damage Christ's sovereignty? 2 sons, 1 turned out to be perfectly righteous, 1 turned out to be perfectly evil. They have now parted company, the evil one is still trying to destroy the righteous one. Jesus is still independent and sovereign, and is still God the Son, whom everyone worships. How does knowing Jesus was once a brother to lucifer effect his sovereignty? It doesn't, except some pastor came up with the idea, and can't back it up.
Lucky you have us. We can go as deep as you want to go into God's Word. Back to Hebrew and Greek if we need too.You are probably right about that. Most people are uncomfortable trying to explain the details. Most people can't explain the details, so they behave like you said above. Most people get frustrated if you don't believe them on the first level. They cannot go to a second or third level. Don't get to frustrated, these too are good people, just not willing to deate the issue thoroughly.
God said to Abraham "Unto your seed I will give this land"
And God did.
End of story. Your grasping at nothing, because seed is descendants.
You do not even know what the word prophecy means. So let's get a definition first and foremost so we are both on the same page.
After we are done we can talk about all JS prophecies that are totally bogus.
Well, in Numbers 13 the head of each of the 12 Tribes of Israel was chosen to go out and scout the land that God had promised them. They all went out to see what the land was like who inhabited it, if they lived in cities or tents, what the fruit/food was like, ect.Your last statement is the problem. You don't even know the definition of prophecy, so lets find it so we can prove that all of JS prophecies are totally bogus. With that attitude you will certainly find them all bogus. Forget anything else.
This is what I have been trying to tell you in post #180.
We both agree that Abrahams seed would inherit the land. Then lets look a some details. One is Oshea.
So why did not Oshea, the son of Nun (Numbers 13:8) inherit the land. He is of the seed of Abraham and God promised that the seed of Abraham would inherit. So why did he not inherit?
If you can tell me why Oshea did not inherit, then we can look at JS prophecies and see what happened.
Well, in Numbers 13 the head of each of the 12 Tribes of Israel was chosen to go out and scout the land that God had promised them. They all went out to see what the land was like who inhabited it, if they lived in cities or tents, what the fruit/food was like, ect.
Numbers 13
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them. 3And Moses by the commandment of the LORD sent them from the wilderness of Paran: all those men were heads of the children of Israel. 4And these were their names: of the tribe of Reuben, Shammua the son of Zaccur. 5Of the tribe of Simeon, Shaphat the son of Hori. 6Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh. 7Of the tribe of Issachar, Igal the son of Joseph. 8Of the tribe of Ephraim, Oshea the son of Nun. 9Of the tribe of Benjamin, Palti the son of Raphu. 10Of the tribe of Zebulun, Gaddiel the son of Sodi. 11Of the tribe of Joseph, namely, of the tribe of Manasseh, Gaddi the son of Susi. 12Of the tribe of Dan, Ammiel the son of Gemalli. 13Of the tribe of Asher, Sethur the son of Michael. 14Of the tribe of Naphtali, Nahbi the son of Vophsi. 15Of the tribe of Gad, Geuel the son of Machi. 16 These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.
and see the land, what it is; and the people that dwelleth therein, whether they be strong or weak, few or many; 19And what the land is that they dwell in, whether it be good or bad; and what cities they be that they dwell in, whether in tents, or in strong holds; 20And what the land is, whether it be fat or lean, whether there be wood therein, or not. And be ye of good courage, and bring of the fruit of the land. Now the time was the time of the firstripe grapes.
25And they returned from searching of the land after forty days. 26And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land. 27And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it. 28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there. 29The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it
But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. 32And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. 33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
So, even though the Lord had promised them the land, 10 of the 12 came back and said that if the Israelites were to try to conquer that land the people were too strong and giants (think David & Goliath) and the cities were walled so they could not get in. But it looks like Oshea was one of the two that survived, note the above in purple, Moses had renamed Oshea, Jehoshua (which is Joshua). this is what Chapter 14 says about the two that survived and gave a good report.
Numbers 14
And Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of them that searched the land. he land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land. 8 If the LORD delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey. 9 Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the LORD is with us: fear them not.
God said descendants. He did not give a timeline. I don't understand what your problem is with descendants. Descendants is not your kids it could be great grand children. Someone in your bloodline.TBL says:
So, even though the Lord had promised them the land, 10 of the 12 came back and said that if the Israelites were to try to conquer that land the people were too strong and giants (think David & Goliath) and the cities were walled so they could not get in. But it looks like Oshea was one of the two that survived, note the above in purple, Moses had renamed Oshea, Jehoshua (which is Joshua). this is what Chapter 14 says about the two that survived and gave a good report.
I did pick the wrong person, because Oshea (Joshua) did come into the land, you are right. Look at the other persons on that list except for Caleb and Oshea. (Numbers 13:8) Thanks for that info.
The issue is: God promised these descendents of Abraham that they would enter into the land, the promise was made hundreds of years before and reiterated many times through the years. But now comes the condition that will alter the promise: they are not worthy to enter.
Now I am not a Mormon but for the sake of fairness I would have to say you are not entirely correct. Yes, nobody can see the face of God and live. That is...if God was revealed in his full glory. We read in in Scripture where Jacob wrestled with God and was later renamed Israel. Obviously he had to see God's face. Abraham also met with God when he was told he would have a son and Sarah laughed. So it is completely possible to see the face of God, just not in his full glory.
All I am saying is, when God speaks, either from his mouth or from the mouth of a prophet, we expect that what he says will come to pass. Well that is true, most of the time.God said descendants. He did not give a timeline. I don't understand what your problem is with descendants. Descendants is not your kids it could be great grand children. Someone in your bloodline.
de·scend·ant
dəˈsendənt/
noun
plural noun: descendants
a person, plant, or animal that is descended from a particular ancestor.
So how is that breaking the prophecy? It just doesn't make sense what you are saying.
Jacob did "wrestle" a man of flesh and bone, and called Him God.Jacob wrestled with God in darkness. Not in the light:
And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. (Genesis 32:24)
Besides, God is Spirit. Not flesh. No one can see Spirit.
Jacob did "wrestle" a man of flesh and bone, and called Him God.
Genesis 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
So either God is not just a spirit (because Jacob saw Him) or God creates a temporary body for Himself and then discards it after wrestling with Jacob. I say that God has a resurrected body of flesh and bone, so this story fits LDS POV.
I'm not sure what you are getting at when you say, God wrestled Jacob in the dark, not in the light. Does it matter?
It could be the god of Mormonism changes prophecies, but not the God of Christianity. The God of Christainity does as He promises.All I am saying is, when God speaks, either from his mouth or from the mouth of a prophet, we expect that what he says will come to pass. Well that is true, most of the time.
Promises and prophecies from God can change, depending on the circumstances sometimes. Moses's people were all promised they would inherit the land. Some did, some didn't. Is it because God and Moses reneged on the promise, no, it was because those who did not enter were unworthy of the promise and it became null and void for them.
In the case of Sethur, the son of Michael, of the tribe of Ashur (Numbers 13:13), God promised him through Moses that he would inherit the land. He did not inherit, why? It is because his circumstances changed, he became unworthy of the promise and God took away the promise.
Joseph Smith was promised that his people would build a great temple to God in Independence Missouri. But when his people did not do what God had asked, they became unworthy to build the temple in Missouri at that time, in fact they were forced to leave Missouri by mob violence and ended up in Salt Lake City. So the prophecy was not fulfilled because the circumstances changed. Did God or JS renege on the promise, no, the people were not worthy of the promise and it was delayed until a future day. One day there will be a temple built in Independence Missouri, as JS prophecied, but not until the people are worthy to do it.
Well, you can't see anyone in the dark. It's not like they had electricity to switch on. Maybe God can create a temporary body for Himself. He's--God. Maybe it was an angel. Maybe it was Jesus Christ. NO one knows. I sure don't. You or I weren't there. Its one of those mysteries of God, like Cain's unexplained mark of protection, we all must leave--with God. Some can't. I am one that can.
I believe God gets to define Himself. I challenge anyone who thinks they have the right to define me--because they are not me, so I must give Him the same courtesy. God says repeatedly that He is Spirit. Many of the prophets say repeatedly that God is Spirit. Jesus says repeatedly that the Father is Spirit. Okay. Who can (or should) argue with that or second guess what He meant by it? I have to go by what God says about Himself, instead of listening to men or even my own musings. As a mormon you are taught that God is/was flesh and bone. Okay. But I'm not mormon. Believe what and how you choose to believe, and give me the same courtesy. Thanks.[/QUOTE
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First of all, you certainly have the right to believe what you wish. This is a discussion forum, and we all learn from the discussion, and as long as we are polite in our posts, we should all be able to learn and grow in the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is my hope.
tickingclocker says:
NO one knows, I sure don't, You or I weren't there.
Your right that you and I weren't there, but you are not right that NO one knows.
Jacob was there and this event is recorded in the bible. So it is what Jacob tells us that is important. And this is what Jacob said:
Genesis 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Jacob says he wrestled with a man. The man had to be a flesh and bone man. And Jacob called the place Peniel and why Peniel, is it because he saw an angel?
No, it is because he says he saw God. And here is the interesting verbiage: He says he not only saw God, but then he goes on to say: he saw Him face to face, and then adds and my life was preserved.
So Jacob's words, recorded in the bible, are very clear as to what happened and who was present in this event.
You may be confused because your learning teaches you that God is a spirit. You know from your learning that spirit is non-matter and is invisible. Well if God is a spirit, then Jacob and the bible are obviously not telling the truth. So it becomes confusing.
You start to analyze the story based on your learning and things happen like, Jacob was wrestling with an angel, or some other being, but not God really. And wrestling doesn't really mean wrestle like we know its usually meaning, it could have been a wrestling of words only. And he really didn't really see Him face to face, that absurd, God is spirit, and does not even have a face. So Jacob must have put face to face in the record to make it more humanistic for us to understand, but it really wasn't that way. Oh, and even if it happened just as Jacob said it did, God has the power to create a temporary body and then discard it and go back to his spirit form whenever He wishes.
Here is what LDS believe. God has a perfect resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit. God's spirit is real and it is, however, enveloped in a magnificent body of flesh and bone. Not the kind of flesh and bone that you have, but nonetheless, flesh and bone. I say it like this: God's body of flesh and bone and spirit is higher than our human body of flesh and blood and bone and spirit, as our frail human bodies are higher than a simple one-celled ameoba. So even though God has a body of flesh and bone and spirit, it has properties and qualities that we can not describe or understand, but it's foundation is flesh and bone and spirit.
So if Jacob says he wrestled with God and saw Him face to face and his life was preserved, this I believe. I believe what Jacob and the bible says.
Question....out of curiosity....have any Mormons participated in this thread? I just think it is interesting that only non-mormons have participated in a thread about Mormonism. Lol
It is lucky.
I do not think that you can post part of a LDS lesson on here with a link. You may want to remove it before the moderators find it.Transfiguration is taught in the bible as described in this scholarly article.
Lesson 13: "I Will Give unto Thee the Keys of the Kingdom"
Larry E. Dahl, "I Have a Question," Ensign, Apr. 1983, 21-23 - Mar 27, 2007
Who appeared to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration? What was the purpose of their appearance?
Who appeared to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration? What was the purpose of their appearance?
Larry E. Dahl, associate professor of Church history and doctrine, Brigham Young University. Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, and perhaps others appeared to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, where the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 16:19) were conferred upon them. There is evidence that they also were endowed with power from on high and instructed in the affairs of the kingdom of God.
Matthew (Matt. 17:1-13), Mark (Mark 9:2-13), and Luke (Luke 9:28-36) all give an account of the event. From their accounts in the King James Version of the Bible we learn:
1. Approximately one week after Peter had been told that he would be given the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 16:19), Jesus took Peter, James, and John "up into a high mountain apart." (Mark 9:2.)
2. There Jesus was transfigured before them--his face shone as the sun and his raiment became "white as light." (Matt. 17:2.)
3. Peter, James, and John saw Moses and Elijah ("Elias" is the Greek rendering of the Hebrew Elijah; see Luke 4:25-26; 1 Kgs. 17) talking with Christ. Luke tells us that Moses and Elijah spoke of the Savior's "decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem." (Luke 9:31.) ...
https://www.ldsliving.com/story/5695-lesson-13-i-will-give-unto-thee-the-keys-of-the-kingdom/print
That is the gospel my friend.
That is the beginning and the end.
There is nothing that we need besides that. It's a shame some get unfocused on what the prize. Is. Unrealiziingly, you damage the sovereignty of Christ by comparing Him as a spirit brother of Satan.
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