LDS LDS: The Book of Mormon

Ironhold · Nov 19, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Why would the book of mormon be to Central America?

Also, I am in such huge disagreement I can barely contain myself that you said 'they so completely echo each other is testament to the fact that God's word is the same'.

How in the world can you even make that statement? That makes me wonder indeed what understanding you even have of the Bible. I see that statement as you being so blind to even God's character and any words that are contained in the Bible. It is undeniable. I cannot get over that. That you could make that statement at all.

Dude, you're starting to get insulting here.

I'm more than familiar with the scriptures... all of them.

I actually had to retire my first set because the spines were blown out.

David4223 · Nov 19, 2015

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withwonderingawe · Nov 19, 2015

This is to answer Steve's question;

*First thing to ya have to know is the Book of Mormon is a story about racism and ya can’t have a story about racism without some racist comments being made.

When the Lord cursed Cain he set a mark on him but the Bible does not say what that mark was nor that the curse was the mark. In fact the mark, whatever it was, was suppose to protect him from being murdered himself.

The curse was;

"When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth"

So he was cursed to become a hunter gatherer but there was more to it, Cain said himself;

"…and from thy face shall I be hid; …And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord"

He was cut off from the presence of God.

But the Christian world has for centuries believed that mark was the black skin. There is a reference to this belief as early as 378 ad. There is a poem written by a black slave named Phyllis Wheatley, she wrote in 1773;

"Remember Christians, Negroes black as Cain, May be refined and joined the angelic train".

The idea that blacks were inferior to whites because of this curse is something Americans grew up with, it was taught in their churches and was part of their daily life. Many great men like George Washington held slaves because it was part of his life he grew up with it. Children learn from the example they are given.

The Book of Mormon was brought into this culture with a whole new message. It’s about how to over come racism both on a personal level and on a social cultural level.

*Prophets of God are just men with all the failings of men. We Mormons love our prophets but we do not deify them. We understand they have their own biases and sometimes “see through a glass darkly”. In the Doctrine and Covenants Joseph Smith is chastised by the Lord on numerous occasions.

We also do not see scripture as falling out of the mouth of God into the pen of the prophet who wrote it.

Nephi wrote:
"Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself."

He knows not every jot and tittle, Here are two example from Paul in the New Testament;

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” 1Cor 13:12

"That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting." 2Cor 11:17

So one thing a reader of scripture has to do is separate out the actual words of the Lord from the commentary of the writer.

In Gen 30 there is an story where Jacob shows his superstition, he takes rods of a chestnut tree "….and made the white appear which was in the rods". He then placed the rods in the water where his goats drank from the water.

"And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted"

Surely the Lord did not tell Jacob to do that, no it was an old wives tale he was taught.

Unless the writer says "thus saith the Lord" some of what is in scripture are the thoughts of the writer.

There is of course much more in there written by the prophets when they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit but we have to allow for Paul’s foolishness and for customs of the time, ie women keeping their heads covered or even their acceptance of the slavery of their day.

There is another example with Peter, he was committed to the gospel of circumcision, he refused to eat with those who were not, he was double minded. It’s not until Paul calls him to task that he repents of his traditional bigotry toward gentiles.

*In the Book of Mormon there is one of the big glaring and ugly statement but it needs to be put in context.

In 1 Nephi 2 Nephi goes to the Lord seeking to know if his father is leading them righteously and he is told about his bother’s seed

" ..And inasmuch as thy brethren shall rebel against thee, they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord….I will curse them even with a sore curse, and they shall have no power over thy seed except they shall rebel against me also….they shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in the ways of remembrance.”

Let’s compare this with Josh 23:13 you might say Nephi plagiarized;

"Know for a certainty that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you."

God does things to keep his people humble.

Later in 1 Nephi 12 he has a vision of the future with all of the wars and contentions and the end of his own white Nephite posterity. He is told

" …because of unbelief the remaining people will become ...a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations" (compare with Job 15:6)

He is using darkness as an idiom for evil just as Isaiah does.

"For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people" Isa 60: 2

Daniel seeing the end of the world says;

"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried.." Dan 12

John the Revelator sees the marriage of the Lamb

"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

This comparison idiom between white and darkness runs throughout the Bible, it’s a Hebrew thing past down to us.

In 2 Nephi 5 it is 30 years since they left Jerusalem and Nephi is speaking from hindsight. His brothers Laman and Lemuel had tried to kill Nephi and their own father, even after seeing an angel. He prayed over them greatly but the Lord told him to flee from his brothers. He takes his family including his sisters and all those who sided with him and go into the wilderness to find another place to live in peace. His bothers and the sons of Ishmael apparently break the Mosaic covenant by marrying some of the dark skinned people around them.

Nephi writes about his brother’s family. He quotes the Lord directly and says;

"Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence….And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done."

Those are the Lord’s exact words

But Nephi adds this commentary;

"And behold, they were cut off from his presence. And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

Now just hold your anger for a minute and know that in the very next chapter Nephi writes;

"….and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile…" 2 Nephi 26

As in the story with Cain the Lord really doesn’t say what the cursing is accept that they would be cut off from his presence. There is not a place where he says ‘I’m going to make them black and I want you to loath them’.

Instead Nephi seeing his brothers children with dark skins assumes this is the cursing. The Lord with his foreknowledge knows something big is going to happen and he’s allowing the natural events to take place.

" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isa 45:7

withwonderingawe · Nov 19, 2015

continued

* So we have here in the Book of Mormon the black and white conflict put in motion.

It is Jacob Nephi’s younger brother who later says to his people "Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you…".

He’s calling the Lamanites their brothers, always through this entire story line the Lamanites are called their brothers. And Jacob condemns the Nephite’s bigotry toward them.

*Here is a major doctrinal difference between traditional Christianity and Mormonism. As I understand traditional Christian beliefs each person is a sinner simply by virtue of birth. Adam’s sin is transferred to each and every child born.

But we feel the Bible teaches something quite different.
"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die….The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Eze 18

So this cursing of the Lamanites of being ‘cut off’ would appear to go against that doctrine but in Jacob we see a little better what the Lord is actually doing.

The white Nephites were committing adultery and Jacob is taking them to task.

"… their (the dark Lamanites) unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; …. remember that their filthiness/sin came because of their fathers. Wherefore, ye shall remember your children, how that ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them; and also, remember that ye may, because of your filthiness/sin, bring your children unto destruction, and their sins be heaped upon your heads at the last day." Jacob 3

There is another reference to this doctrine in D&C 68

"…inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, … that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, ….. the sin be upon the heads of the parents."

If we are terrible examples to our children and don’t teach them right from wrong then their sins will be upon us. James said that those who know to do good and do it not that is a sin.

These descendants of Laman and Lemuel will not beheld accountable for their lack of belief because they haven’t been taught. Their sins to a point will be placed on the heads of Laman and Lemuel.

So the Lord has created a conflict yet saved the vast majority of those involved.

Jacob tells the wicked Nephites concerning their brothers the Lamanites;

"…the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people."

*These two families, the Nephites and the Lamanites clash throughout the Book of Mormon. At times they actually change positions the Lamanites become more righteous than the Nephites. Samuel a Lamanite prophet is sent to the wicked Nephites to call them to repentance.

At one point they come together give up their bigotry and inter marry. The prophet Mormon, who is editing this portion of the book hundreds of years later, and who like Jacob in the Old Testament has no knowledge of DNA and how it works writes;

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites." 3Nephi 2

There is no ‘thus saith the Lord I’ve lifted the curse’. No, this is an observation and a jump to a conclusion.

Now I’m going to say something here for which my fellow Mormons might throw something at me. This Prophet of the Lord Mormon writes about himself; "I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi" in other words he’s saying I am white. He is proud of his heritage which is a good thing and I’m sure he loved his brown brothers and sisters but at the same time pride can lead to a people’s down fall with contentions.

In 3 Nephi Jesus has come to the people and they have all bowed their knee to Christ

"And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people. And there were no envyings, nor strifes …. and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God. There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God." 4th Nephi

This is the only way for a society to get rid of their racist feelings they must come unto Christ and realize that we are all children of God. These people lived like this for three generations and then this crept into their society;

" a small part of the people who had revolted from the church and taken upon them the name of Lamanites; therefore there began to be Lamanites again in the land….And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them. And they began to be divided into classes….."

Note it is the Lamanites who revolted they chose to separate themselves from the Love of God. In short order this great nation completely falls apart, they divided again into tribes and begin to hunt each other down.

My point here is that according to the pre-knowledge of the Lord he planned to bring this family to what they called "the promised land". He knew they would eventually inter marry with the brown skinned people living here. Through this means Abraham’s seed was mixed through out the world and the Gospel was taught throughout the world and to all nation, just as Matt 24 says it would. But, he also knew the hearts of men and the bigotry which is found there.

Our Heavenly Father was not telling these people to hate someone because of their skin color quite the opposite is true. The Book of Mormon Jacob tells them;

"Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness/sins; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers." Jacob 3

*Now a couple of examples of the fruits of faith;

Enos is a man whose father has taught him of Christ but he hasn’t himself had that "born again" experience. He goes out into the wilderness to pray and he has it. " I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul" and when the Lord tells him his sins are forgiven he says "my guilt was swept away".

The first thing he does is to pray some more; "I began to feel a desire for the welfare of my brethren… and I prayed unto him with many long strugglings for my brethren, the Lamanites"

When the love of Christ inters your heart then you will begin to see all men as your brothers.

And another example; the sinful four sons of Mosiah go through a rather powerful "born again" experience and what do they do?

They go to their father and ask for permission to go to their brothers the Lamanites

"…that they might impart the word of God to their brethren, the Lamanites— That perhaps they might bring them to the knowledge of the Lord their God, …that there should be no more contentions in all the land which the Lord their God had given them. Now they were desirous that salvation should be declared to every creature…" Mosiah 28

It is the natural fruit of a truly born again person to see others as your brothers and to want to share the gospel and that is the message of the Book of Mormon.

ToBeLoved · Nov 19, 2015

Ironhold said:
Dude, you're starting to get insulting here.

I'm more than familiar with the scriptures... all of them.

I actually had to retire my first set because the spines were blown out.

I don't think that it is insulting because you said earlier:

Ironhold said: ↑

The Bible and Book of Mormon are considered companion texts, in that they are to be taken together.

You see, the Bible contains God's word to the Middle East, while the Book of Mormon contains God's word to Central America. That they so completely echo each other is testament to the fact that God's word is the same no matter where you are in the world.

So I made that comment based on the fact that you see these two books as companion text that completely echo each other.

Considering I commented as a 'reply' to that specific post, you should not be surprised at my reaction.

It is not personal, it is about what you wrote. And I stand by that that it shows how much you really understand about the Bible. To understand spiritual things you need to have the Holy Spirit, maybe that is the disconnect.

I've read many things that I have not comprehended fully. I'm sure that you have to. But God's Word is not one of them I can assure you.

throughfiierytrial · Nov 19, 2015

Ironhold said:
Which translation are you using? NIV, 1984

This is how it is presented in the KJV:

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

The KJV rendering makes it sound as if the verse has nothing to do with the canon.

Although the wording of the KJV is different one can see the same doctrine of staying within the written Word...those there were warned not to go above which is written.
Jesus tells us that the Apostle's testimony is for all those who hear the Apostles message:
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
...All applicable to us then. If they were to stay within the confines of the written Word then, we also must,.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The KJV rendering also appears to have nothing to do with the canon being closed.
KJV admonishes and reminds to stay within the doctrine of Christ...how can you justify accepting testimony of unknown origins given the above and then this instruction/warning as well?
I Timothy 3:8-10:
In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

One can see that Truth is of the utmost concern...this test cannot be considered reliable where Truth is changing and is not a defined/ closed cannon...you have allowed an addition of another gospel delivered by an angel...was readily accepted in fact. And how do you know it was an elect angel? Galations, which I quoted says not to accept another Gospel even if from an angel.

The "scroll" in question is Revelation itself, not the Bible. This is the most commonly-used argument on behalf of a closed canon, and is also the easiest to disprove. Remember, the Bible as we know it was not compiled for some time after the writers wrote.
I disagree and believe that is short-sighted and underestimates the power of God. The O.T. was delivered with the same warnings. Here's another passage of support:

“Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. ~Proverbs 30:5-6

This is another one that gets pretty quickly tabled: who is the angel in Revelation that is supposed to have the gospel? And if no angel is supposed to deliver one, then does that not conflict?
I believe that angel is Jesus. The O.T. refers to Him as the Angel of the Lord and He says nothing about sending out more messages.

This passage was in direct response to activities of the day. Many of the churches that Paul had helped to plant were already backsliding or going off into apostasy, leaving Paul to warn the leaders about the situation.
I know why it is there, that is written into the pages of Scripture. Why you do not believe it remains applicable I do not know. Jesus says He is the same yesterday, today and forever and about His Word He says:
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. ~Luke 21:33
Those precepts are timeless.
How does this apply to anyone but the leadership of that day? See my answer above...Luke 21:33
I'll add that you are quick to dismiss with your own refutation but this is all so very serious. This means your eternal well-being is in jeopardy.

Ditto for the next passage.

Ironhold · Nov 19, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
So I made that comment based on the fact that you see these two books as companion text that completely echo each other.

If you feel that they disagree, then please give specifics.

throughfiierytrial · Nov 19, 2015

Which translation are you using? NIV, 1984

This is how it is presented in the KJV:

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

The KJV rendering makes it sound as if the verse has nothing to do with the canon.

Although the wording of the KJV is different one can see the same doctrine of staying within the written Word...those there were warned not to go above which is written.
Jesus tells us that the Apostle's testimony is for all those who hear the Apostles message:
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
...All applicable to us then. If they were to stay within the confines of the written Word then, we also must.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The KJV rendering also appears to have nothing to do with the canon being closed.
KJV admonishes and reminds to stay within the doctrine of Christ...how can you justify accepting testimony of unknown origins given the above and then this instruction/warning as well?
I Timothy 3:8-10:
In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

One can see that Truth is of the utmost concern...this test cannot be considered reliable where Truth is changing and is not a defined/ closed cannon...you have allowed an addition of another gospel delivered by an angel...was readily accepted in fact. And how do you know it was an elect angel? Galations, which I quoted says not to accept another Gospel even if from an angel.

The "scroll" in question is Revelation itself, not the Bible. This is the most commonly-used argument on behalf of a closed canon, and is also the easiest to disprove. Remember, the Bible as we know it was not compiled for some time after the writers wrote.
I disagree and believe that is short-sighted and underestimates the power of God. The O.T. was delivered with the same warnings. Here's another passage of support:

“Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. ~Proverbs 30:5-6

This is another one that gets pretty quickly tabled: who is the angel in Revelation that is supposed to have the gospel? And if no angel is supposed to deliver one, then does that not conflict?
I believe that angel is Jesus. The O.T. refers to Him as the Angel of the Lord and He says nothing about sending out more messages.

This passage was in direct response to activities of the day. Many of the churches that Paul had helped to plant were already backsliding or going off into apostasy, leaving Paul to warn the leaders about the situation.
I know why it is there, that is written into the pages of Scripture. Why you do not believe it remains applicable I do not know. Jesus says He is the same yesterday, today and forever and about His Word He says:
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. ~Luke 21:33
Those precepts are timeless.
How does this apply to anyone but the leadership of that day? See my answer above...Luke 21:33
I'll add that you are quick to dismiss with your own refutation but this is all so very serious. This means your eternal well-being is in jeopardy.

Ironhold · Nov 19, 2015

Folks, please don't respond within the previous quote tags.

Make new quote tags as needed, okay?

It makes responding to people a lot harder than it needs to be.

**

Although the wording of the KJV is different one can see the same doctrine of staying within the written Word...those there were warned not to go above which is written.

... in regards to how much honor they gave men.

The status of this verse as support for your assertion is IMHO tenuous at best.

Jesus tells us that the Apostle's testimony is for all those who hear the Apostles message:

How does this apply to the canon being closed?

KJV admonishes and reminds to stay within the doctrine of Christ...how can you justify accepting testimony of unknown origins given the above and then this instruction/warning as well?

You're making assertions, but your arguments do not bear these out.

I Timothy 3:8-10:
In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

KJV rendering of verse 10:

And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

The test is not a test of the gospel, but of the character of the candidates.

I disagree and believe that is short-sighted and underestimates the power of God.

I'd suggest that you read up on the history of Revelation itself and how it was entered into the canon. Not only was it likely *not* the last book to be written, there were also issues with establishing its provenience, such that it almost didn't make the cut for inclusion in the canon. IIRC, it was Marcion who first compiled a canon that included it.

The O.T. was delivered with the same warnings. Here's another passage of support:

Thing is, we *clearly* have material that was added to the canon after this passage was written, raising an immediate counter to your argument.

I'll add that you are quick to dismiss with your own refutation but this is all so very serious. This means your eternal well-being is in jeopardy.

This statement here comes across as you saying "You're going to Hell because you do not believe as I do".

This is the kind of material that causes most Mormons to write people off as tinkling cymbals and sounding brass.

ToBeLoved · Nov 19, 2015

Ironhold said:
If you feel that they disagree, then please give specifics.

That a heavenly mother even exists. Their is no female diety
That the book of mormon is God-breathed.
That we in anyway have spiritual parents.
That Joseph Smith preaches another gospel, not Jesus Christ.
That Jesus and satan are brothers

I'll start there

Ironhold · Nov 19, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
That a heavenly mother even exists. Their is no female diety
That the book of mormon is God-breathed.
That we in anyway have spiritual parents.
That Joseph Smith preaches another gospel, not Jesus Christ.
That Jesus and satan are brothers

I'll start there

And your arguments against these are...?

Jane_Doe · Nov 19, 2015

Ok TBL. You assertion was that the Bible and Book of Mormon disagree as demonstrated by these points. Let's talk about them.

ToBeLoved said:
That a heavenly mother even exists.

Not in the Book of Mormon.

ToBeLoved said:
That the book of mormon is God-breathed.

Ok, that's your opinion... doesn't really apply to this discussion.

ToBeLoved said:
That we in anyway have spiritual parents.

Already talked about Heavenly Mother.
Both the Bible and Book of Mormon teach quite thoroughly the we have a Father is Heaven. Do you think not?

ToBeLoved said:
That Joseph Smith preaches another gospel, not Jesus Christ.

Vague statement. Give a specific example.

The gospel that I study as Mormon is one where "we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins" (quoting from the Book of Mormon). What gospel do you follow, is it different?

BigDaddy4 · Nov 19, 2015

Ironhold said:
When you consider how many hands the Bible has passed through and how many different attempts there have been at translating it, I think you can understand at least some degree of "look before you leap".

Even on this very website we've had issues with people using different translations of the Bible, only to find that the different translations render things in surprisingly different ways.

I think you are making things up to try an explain the lds position.

Orthodox Christianity view of the Bible = God's absolute truth
LDS view of the Bible = God's relative truth

Regardless of translation, we can always go back to the original language. The BoM cannot.

createdtoworship · Nov 19, 2015

Ironhold said:
Official church materials are copyright "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "Intellectual Reserve".

If it has anyone else's copyright on it, then it means that it's a third-party publication.

Author Bruce R McConkie of the work Mormon Doctrine, which is accepted in most all mormon seminaries is a third party publication.

secondly,

the author of the mormon book "the church and the negro " thanks staff of BYU for helping him with the work. So you would have to disqualify many many mormon books, and BYU by this rule.

Ironhold said:
Who is the listed copyright holder?

again bookcraft is the holder of one of the books "Mormon Doctrine."

and lastly all these books were purchased through mormon bookstores locally.

in conclusion, I will include a scan with a brief quote from the book that in fact quotes the founder of the Mormon Churches:

fatboys · Nov 19, 2015

gradyll said:
Author Bruce R McConkie of the work Mormon Doctrine, which is accepted in most all mormon seminaries is a third party publication.

secondly,

the author of the mormon book "the church and the negro " thanks staff of BYU for helping him with the work. So you would have to disqualify many many mormon books, and BYU by this rule.

again bookcraft is the holder of one of the books "Mormon Doctrine."

and lastly all these books were purchased through mormon bookstores locally.

in conclusion, I will include a scan with a brief quote from the book that in fact quotes the founder of the Mormon Churches:View attachment 166105

They don't use Bruce Rs book in any seminary

Jane_Doe · Nov 19, 2015

All of your sources are nonofficial.

gradyll said:
Author Bruce R McConkie of the work Mormon Doctrine, which is accepted in most all mormon seminaries is a third party publication.

Incorrect.

1) "Mormon Doctrine" is not copyright "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "Intellectual Reserve". It is not an official LDS publication. (It's published by Bookcraft Pubs and copyright owned by the author's family).
2) There are no official "third party" LDS publications.
3) "Mormon Doctrine" was not written by a top church leader, nor was it authorized by the top LDS church leaders. In fact, they were not even informed it was being written till after publication.
4) "Mormon Doctrine" was so riddled by errors.
5) Mormons do not even have seminaries like other Christian groups. (An LDS seminary is a high school class).

gradyll said:
the author of the mormon book "the church and the negro "

Again, nonofficial. Published and copyrighted by the author, whom was also not a church leader.

gradyll said:
So you would have to disqualify many many mormon books, and BYU by this rule.

True: things published by BYU are not official Mormon church publications. They're BYU publications.

gradyll said:
and lastly all these books were purchased through mormon bookstores locally.

Which does not make it an official Mormon publication. Mormon bookstores also sell Harry Potter because...it's a bookstore!

createdtoworship · Nov 19, 2015

Jane_Doe said:
All of your sources are nonofficial.

Incorrect.

1) "Mormon Doctrine" is not copyright "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "Intellectual Reserve". It is not an official LDS publication. (It's published by Bookcraft Pubs and copyright owned by the author's family).
2) There are no official "third party" LDS publications.
3) "Mormon Doctrine" was not written by a top church leader, nor was it authorized by the top LDS church leaders. In fact, they were not even informed it was being written till after publication.
4) "Mormon Doctrine" was so riddled by errors.
5) Mormons do not even have seminaries like other Christian groups. (An LDS seminary is a high school class).

Again, nonofficial. Published and copyrighted by the author, whom was also not a church leader.

True: things published by BYU are not official Mormon church publications. They're BYU publications.

Which does not make it an official Mormon publication. Mormon bookstores also sell Harry Potter because...it's a bookstore!

your premise is self defeating,
because if books are not official because they are lacking publishing from LDS avenues,

then BYU, and all their degrees, diplomas, and other peer review are officially not withing the pale of orthodoxy for a Mormon to engage in.

and lastly Brigham young and Joseph smith's works would not be divine because they predated LDS organizations in an official manner.

you can come up with whatever rule you wish, but you must obey it fully.

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10). "

"
2 NEPHI 5:21

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey."

"Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them....
The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse -- "-
Online College Level,
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.-Elder MARK E. PETERSON

Jane_Doe · Nov 19, 2015

gradyll said:
your premise is self defeating,
because if books are not official because they are lacking publishing from LDS avenues,

then BYU, and all their degrees, diplomas, and other peer review are officially not withing the pale of orthodoxy for a Mormon to engage in.

you can come up with whatever rule you wish, but you must obey it fully.

I'm not sure how anything is "self-defeating" here.

Official LDS books are published via the official LDS publishing venue. Other books use other venues. It's very straight forward. Other books about Mormon beliefs or people may be of high quality and may have much truth in them, but they're simply not official. Again, pretty straight forward.

withwonderingawe · Nov 19, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
That a heavenly mother even exists. Their is no female diety
That the book of mormon is God-breathed.
That we in anyway have spiritual parents.
That Jesus and satan are brothers

I'll start there

Believe it our not, not any of that is in there.

That Joseph Smith preaches another gospel, not Jesus Christ.

The whole book is about Jesus and his atoning sacrifice, so apparently you haven't read it.

mmksparbud · Nov 19, 2015

Well, the bible has many manuscripts which have been unearthed over the centuries. And the translations of these scrolls can all be checked. Many scholars have worked to translate them, and there are several translations of the bible. The scrolls themselves can be seen and examined and the words researched as there are many, many, many other manuscripts that contain the same language. As to whether the BOM is an accurate translation, how can anyone know that it even existed? There are no original plates to examine, there are no other manuscripts found that has any such language written on them to compare with. If the bible were so undocumented, unexamined, with no other pieces of material found with such a language, only had a couple people say they saw the originals, but the originals no longer exists, if only one or 2 persons can claim to have translated this book which required a magic rock in a hat to translate---there would be no Christianity today. All the Mormon church has to do is produce the original golden plates to have them examined, just like the bible has had to be. God has hidden only 2 of His hand written pieces. The original 10 commandments and the writing on the Babylonian wall. The ceremonial ark and Noah's ark are not written artifacts. And even they were around for a very long time and seen by many. Everything else that God inspired men to write, has been left on this earth. The men He spoke to did not have to translate what was said to them by God, He spoke to them in the language they understood. Moses did not have to peer into some rock in a hat to translate what God said. The only translations needed were those messages God gave to unbelievers in dreams (like Nebuchadnezzar and the Pharaoh and other dreams to unbelievers that a believer translated. A believer never had to translate anything from God.

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