• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,184
6,771
Midwest
✟128,460.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The church generally updates manuals every 10 - 20 years, both to reflect current teachings and to maintain active copyrights.

Your manual is simply out of date.


That doesn't bother me.

D&C 93
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
 
Upvote 0

TheBarrd

Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs
Mar 1, 2015
4,955
1,746
Following a Jewish Carpenter
✟14,104.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
The church generally updates manuals every 10 - 20 years, both to reflect current teachings and to maintain active copyrights.

Your manual is simply out of date.

So, wait...are you saying that truth changes every ten to twenty years?
 
Upvote 0

TasteForTruth

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup
Dec 2, 2010
4,799
47
✟24,265.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Marital Status
Married
No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that it is as logical that man may become like his Creator (provided his Creator is his "Father") as it is for a baby to grow and become a man. The end result of both is the design and purpose of its creation.
 
Upvote 0

TheBarrd

Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs
Mar 1, 2015
4,955
1,746
Following a Jewish Carpenter
✟14,104.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status

You were asked:

Originally Posted by Wryetui View Post
What supports the idea of God the Father being once a mortal and living elsewhere, and how do you find it logical, if I may ask?
.

You answered:

As far as logic is concerned, I find it as (strictly) logical as I do the idea that a baby grows and becomes a man.

Explain, please, how you were not saying that it is logical that God the Father was not a mortal from another world???


_______________
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟26,904.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
What supports the idea of God the Father being once a mortal and living elsewhere, and how do you find it logical, if I may ask?
This is something that has been presented to the church by Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow, and a few others. It is not something the Father nor Jesus comes right out and says. Jesus said what the Father taught Him to say. I posit to you that this question lies in the oracles of God discussed in Hebrews 5. To understand it, takes understanding the gospel beyond the basic presentation of salvation, and into the atonement, which is Christ's greatest teaching to us. If we understand Christ, we can begin to understand this concept.

I will begin with a few basics:
I think a keyword that causes some confusion is God. It is an ambiguous English term in my mind. It can relate to at least 3 different Hebrew words: El, Eloah, and Elohim, all of which get translated as "God" in English. To make it more confusing Elohim sometimes gets translated as gods depending on its usage. I believe it is always a plural noun in the sense of the word family. I believe El Elyon is now an immortal man. He is not a mortal man with mortal flesh who would lie. Therefore, I believe all His words. He is El Elyon because he honors his word. And our bodies are created in His image. I believe Jesus shows all this to us in His life and resurrection. "Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
Heavenly Father's Spirit was never created that we know of, but has always been even before the beginning of the gospel or this world. There have been worlds before this one with men on it. Like this one, and like the next one YHWH will create, and this one will not be remembered nor come into mind. Isa 65. Jesus followed the example of who we know as El Elyon, and was begotten by the oath "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." Being made so much higher than the angels, and exalted above his fellows He inherited a name better than they, and he became the author of our eternal salvation because He loved righteousness and followed what His Father taught. As Elohim He created this earth and everything on it in accordance with the plans of the Father, and was sent as the only Begotten Son of the Father. So He is not "God" or El Elyon, but His Son as the scriptures saith, He is the Son of the Highest. Luke. He is the manifestation of the Father to us and is unchanging in His righteousness and His Word, and hence is the chief cornerstone or Revelation of the Father. This is what He tries to teach Peter, that when he saw Christ doing, he was seeing the Father, as He did all things He saw the Father do. He showed us plainly of the Father when He was lifted up on the cross to the glory of the Father.
John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
Hence they share the name YHWH, Behold the nail, Behold the hand, as well as being our Elohim or family of stone. (Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.)

John 5:20
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

And what was His great work?
John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Jesus is our fellow per the gospel, and was made so much higher than the angels when He was begotten of the Father. So He already existed to receive the oath from the Father, and was begotten on a day in time as the Son contrary to the creeds. So yes He is God or YHWH Elohim, but was once as we are.
In fact Acts 13 tells us in the Greek he was raised again - anestemi Ieosus anistemi.
Acts 13:33
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Now the Son shall receive His inheritance of the saints per Isa 42 & 56, and will inherit the government of the Father and the name of the Eternal Father per Isa 9:6

Once one gets past the ambiguous term "god," understands at least a little Hebrew, and lives in the word, the gospel is quite clear, and the doctrines of the trinity are so much chaff. The issue of the creeds and doctrines of the trinity, is that they hide all this gospel in favor of words repeated each Sunday like "eternally begotten" rather than the scriptures themselves. Believe the scriptures for they are life, and not the creeds.

Jesus is the express revelation of the Father to us.
"I have engraven thee on the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me."
and showed us so up on the cross.
John 16:25
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

So Jesus will inherit all the Father hath and be seated with the Father in His throne and shall be the Eternal Father.
Isa 65: 17 ¶For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Matthew 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I hope that helps you understand scripturally how it is that the Father was once as Christ - even as Christ shall be as He is now, and inherit all that He has, and be our Father. I know one thing that people have a hard time with is that the Father is "unchanging" - well this is true from the beginning of the gospel. He is and was the Father of the spirits of our flesh. (Num. 16:22; 27:16)
You seem to be asking thoughtfully, so I have done my best to show you scripturally how these things can be so using scriptures you should be familiar with. If you have other questions I will try to address them but it may take me more than a day to get back.
 
Upvote 0

Wryetui

IC XC NIKA
Dec 15, 2014
1,320
255
27
The Carpathian Garden
✟23,170.00
Country
Romania
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
In the Bible it is said about false prophets that will come and fool people, I do not want to insult you or your faith, but what if those prophet of yours were those false prophets that the Bible talks about? I repeat, I'm not trying to insult anyone, it is just a question.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟26,904.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
But, the Bible is very clear
about what?
that Jesus is the only servant who will receive His glory Isa 42?
and is His elect inheritor of His government and holy mountains per Isa 65?
and shall be called the Eternal Father and the Mighty God per Isa 9:6?
why don't you think that those prophets of your church are the false prophets Jesus said in the Bible that will come to fool people?
The Bible is also clear that He would send more prophets such as the two witnesses of Rev 12:11. Jesus told us that we shall know them by their fruits - not that He would send no more. I too had this question and went to God with it, and I was shown who the false prophet of Revelation is. You know him because the whole world got led astray by the sorceries of his church. And he even exalts himself with the name of Holy Father which is reserved to our Heavenly Father. And he ruled over the kings of the earth after introducing the curia government of the Roman empire and the office of the pontifex maximus into the church. Do you believe Jesus would accept the office of the head of the Roman college of pontiffs? And he rules from the 8th mount across the river from that great city of 7 mounts. Rev 17:9-11
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
So this city once had the truth and the light shone there, but lost the truth in its sorceries, and all nations were deceived in apostasy.
They look like that to me. I am sorry to say this, but your teachings offend God, in my opinion...
Exactly what teachings are you referring to? I have only shown what the Bible says. What about that would offend Him? Don't you believe it is more offensive for man to tell God His nature than vice versa? In fact only a minority of the bishops of the church ruled upon the Nicene Creed: some 325 out of more than 1200. And they contradicted a prior council which excommunicated a bishop for using "homoousios" of God - the very word the Nicene council adopted. Did you know that? And they are "telling God" that His Son was "begotten before all ages or worlds" when God says he begot Jesus when He told Him "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." There were Eastern councils which tried to reverse the effects of the Nicene Creed. I side with scripture on the subject - that Christ was indeed adopted as the Son by the Father.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
If the Son inherited His office as the Son, and now shall inherit the government of the Father, and is the way to the holiest of all, exactly what am I missing?
I have given you various scriptures on the subject. You have alleged that the Bible is clear, but have offered no scriptures - leaving me to kind of guess as to your objections. So if you feel strongly about it, you'll have to give some specifics so I am not just shooting in the dark, and can address your objections with specificity.
Cheers.
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,577
27,116
76
Lousianna
✟1,016,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In the Bible it is said about false prophets that will come and fool people,

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
Upvote 0

Wryetui

IC XC NIKA
Dec 15, 2014
1,320
255
27
The Carpathian Garden
✟23,170.00
Country
Romania
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
No, when I referred to teachings that offend God I wasn't talking about you and your theories, I was talking about the teachings of the LDS. I'm not anyone who talk in the name of God, but what can I say... Concerning what you think about Jesus, I respect that you have your own theories, but I prefer to stick with the church Jesus founded and follow their doctrine
 
Upvote 0

TasteForTruth

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup
Dec 2, 2010
4,799
47
✟24,265.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Marital Status
Married
It is a valid question you raise. Paul taught that we are to "prove all things," and that is what I have done with the Restored Gospel. I cannot speak for others.
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,577
27,116
76
Lousianna
✟1,016,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It is a valid question you raise. Paul taught that we are to "prove all things," and that is what I have done with the Restored Gospel. I cannot speak for others.

Here is Paul's method....

Acts 17:11

These {Bereans}were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The "restored" gospel invents new Scriptures and the JST changes Scriptures (ex. Romans 8:30) when they contradict the gospel of Joseph Smith
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟26,904.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
While I respect the Eastern Orthodox as the peaceful branch of the early church, it was not the only one. There were the Syrian church, and the Church of the East which was basically destroyed by the Muslim ruler Tamerlane. They of course felt they were preserving the truth too.
Now as to my "theories" - if you are not afraid of the truth, go ahead and look at the history of the creeds, and you will see what I have said is true. If I have "theories" so did they. In fact a brief examination of history will reveal that there were a number of theories about the nature of God in the early church, and the doctrine of the trinity evolved out of them from a minority of a few later scholars and the later councils of the Roman state church. The theories of the creeds rose with the Roman state church, and got enforced to be read in the churches under Roman law....
I am content with the scriptures rather than their theories. I know how to read, and they are plain.
Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And just FYI, I am LDS, and I do believe just as Jesus followed the teachings of His Father and your Father, and shall receive His inheritance as our Eternal Father, so too did His Father once do that before the beginning of this world. So maybe I would offend you with that belief, however, I like Peter and the early Christians am merely following the example of Jesus, which Christ Himself did, who did nothing of Himself but that which He saw the Father do.
Once again, I mean no disrespect to you. Nor do I represent that this is the majority view of my church or that it is the "official" position. I don't know that my church really has an official position. When asked, Gordon Hinckley, a prior president, said he really didn't know much about it. What gets presented on the web as "LDS belief" is usually severely skewed to an exaggerated viewpoint from something written in unofficial books or speech some of which I too disagree with. There have been a variety of speculations concerning the matter. I affirm the truth that Christ shows us the way, and was sent as the very Revelation of the Father to us which is why He says things like
John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
I am not offended by Christ's teaching, but am merely following Him - my exemplar.
Cheers
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟26,904.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Here is Paul's method....

Acts 17:11

These {Bereans}were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Yep - not some creeds of a state sponsored church some hundreds of years in the future. So I highly advise readers to follow Paul's advice and search the Bible and compare them to the creeds. I have even prepared a brief study guide to point out the differences using only the scriptures in the Bible:

..................................................Bible vs Roman Creeds/Trinitarianism

Invites men to come freely (godly love)...................................Use of fear, compulsion, & persecution (adversary)
Bible - Covenant with God, Isaiah 61:6-8.........................................Roman Creeds - words from where?
"man shall live by every word of God" Luke 4:4.................... promulgated under the maximum priest of Roman gods
Rome is the Beast of Daniel 7:19-20 ................................(pontifex = builder of the way/roads) Pontifex Maximus office
and Rev 13, Rev 17 Woman on beast ...............................of Constantine and later Bishop of Rome (Roman Church)
Mystery, Babylon 1 Peter 5:13, Rev 17:5................................Babylon was beast of Dan 7:4 and head of image Dan 2

Apostles and Christians had no .................................................................. none 33 A.D - 325 A.D.
creeds for 3 centuries and were persecuted .............................approx 325 Nicea 1st Creed -required by Roman law ............................................................................................to be read in churches - persecution stops

Elohim - a plural Hebrew noun ex. Family .....................Deity(Latin) - a singular "god" idea/word from Rome & Greece
Gen 1:26 "And Eloheim said let US..............................................Rome is beast of Dan 7:19-20, Dan 2 kingdom of iron
make man in OUR image." (includes Father & Son).........................Greece is beast of Dan 7:6, Dan 2 kingdom of brass
God created the world through Jesus Christ Eph 3:9......................Persia is beast of Dan 7:5, Dan 2 kingdom of silver
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Babylon is beast of Dan 7:4, Dan 2 head of gold

Godhead Acts 17:29 KJV, Col 2:9, Ps 82:1..........................Trinity - coined by Tertullian who also said the Son had a ........................................................................................beginning - sorry Trins
https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead?lang=eng.......................... ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian

"The Father and I are one"
Father - Most High(El Elyon) - Psalms 47:2-3, Psalms 110:1, Acts 7:55...................Father "co-equal, one substance, ............................................................. .........................................................one being" the Almighty

Son - Holy One of Israel - Isaiah 54:5 KJV, Acts 13:35....................Son "co-equal, co-substantial, one being"
Son of the Most High, servant - Isaiah 42:1, 6, 8, .................................... Son of the Almighty God
"Enough Breast" (El Shaddai) - Rev 1:8, 4:8, Jn 8:58, Gen 17:1 ...................per Apostles Creed and others
"The Father is greater than I."
"Who hath seen me, hath seen the Father."
"Whatsoever the Father doeth the Son doeth likewise." "I am the way." Jn 14:6
Inheritor - now on right hand, but will sit in Father's stead & be called Father .......... immutable - Son forever ................................................................................................Platonic/Aristotlian(Greece again) concept
Isaiah 9:6, "inheritor of my mountains" Isaiah 65:9; Heb 1:4.......................but already "co-equal"; denies ...........................................................................................................inheritance; enemy to Christ
Under the Hebraic law, the firstborn or begotten inherited all his father had.

only begotten .................................................. ........................325 creed - "begotten before all worlds"
Heb 7:28 Oath of the Father - .........................................................under Bishop of Rome as Pontifex maximus
"Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." ............................... became "eternally begotten"

John 15:16 Pray/ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ .......................... Pray to Son or Mary

Holy Ghost ...................................................................................... Holy Ghost - not declared
Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, ...... co-substantial in Nicean Creed - oops!
it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, .............Constantinople 381 A.D.- ................................................................................................declared as co-equal & one substance
it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come............... with the Son ...............................................................................................................(blasphemy against HG?)

Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Descended upon Jesus in form of dove in River Jordan ...............sprinkle sinless infants with "holy water" salted ...............................................................................................like in pagan roman holy water

Prophets/Apostles/Bishops, etc.....................................vicarius filii dei (666) in Donation of Constantine until ruled ........................................................................................a fake (fallible?)
. . . .. .. .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. .. . . . .. . . . . . .. .. . . .tiaras destroyed by Napoleon
Jesus: "call no man Father" Matt 23:9, John 17:11......................"pope" from popa or literally daddy, father; "holy father"
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: .............. dark ages, inquisitions, crusades against "heretics"
for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. ...........who made claim to Jesus' name
"You shall know them by their fruits" Matt 7:15-16

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.......Truth suppression, fabrications John 8:44
Gen 3:3,22.......................................................................................Gen 3:1,4,5
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution[restoration] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, ... but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints." Ephesians 1:18.
AMEN

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The Matt 28:20 Church




Copyright RevelationTestament.net - license granted for one copy, no reproduction
 
Upvote 0

TasteForTruth

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup
Dec 2, 2010
4,799
47
✟24,265.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Marital Status
Married
My "proving" of the Restored Gospel has already addressed such charges.
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,577
27,116
76
Lousianna
✟1,016,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
My "proving" of the Restored Gospel has already addressed such charges.

Does a burning bosom trump changing Scripture with NO MANUSCRIPT evidence as Smith did in Romans 8:30 ... or tossing ot the Song of Solomon from the canon?
 
Upvote 0

TheBarrd

Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs
Mar 1, 2015
4,955
1,746
Following a Jewish Carpenter
✟14,104.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status

You do know that the Scriptures that the Bereans consulted in their search for truth could not have included the BoM, right?

This is quite a list you have here...You must have spent a great deal of time on it.


..................................................Bible vs Roman Creeds/Trinitarianism


Right off, I have to wonder...why are you so obsessed with creeds? Most mainline Christians are familiar with them, but we don't build our faith on them.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Theway

Senior Member
Nov 25, 2003
1,581
25
64
California
✟1,874.00
Faith
Here is Paul's method....

Acts 17:11

These {Bereans}were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Really? And how did "Paul's method" pan out for the Bereans?
 
Upvote 0

Wryetui

IC XC NIKA
Dec 15, 2014
1,320
255
27
The Carpathian Garden
✟23,170.00
Country
Romania
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Don't you believe it is more offensive for man to tell God His nature than vice versa? In fact only a minority of the bishops of the church ruled upon the Nicene Creed
I think saying that God the Father was once human in another planet and then became God is more offensive. So who started it all? We cannot have an infinite regression of humans on another planets becoming gods so, someone must have started it, who did?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.