LDS LDS Say "Everyone gets what they desire"

[dzheremi]

I believe the doctrine is from the Bible:

I know you believe that. I just don't agree with you.

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26 - 27)

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Man is in the image of the Father, Eve is in the image of her mother. The "us" and "our" referrers to the Father and the Mother.

No it doesn't. That's just silly. It's a silly idea that there needs to be a heavenly mother because Eve was a woman.

Also, if Eve is made in the image of her (heavenly) mother, then what do Mormons make of Genesis 2:22, where the text says that God made Eve out of Adam's rib? Was 'God the Mother' therefore made out of God the Father's rib? If not, why not, and why then doesn't the same argument apply to Eve's semblance to the heavenly mother?

 

[He is the way]

I know you believe that. I just don't agree with you.



No it doesn't. That's just silly. It's a silly idea that there needs to be a heavenly mother because Eve was a woman.

Also, if Eve is made in the image of her (heavenly) mother, then what do Mormons make of Genesis 2:22, where the text says that God made Eve out of Adam's rib? Was 'God the Mother' therefore made out of God the Father's rib? If not, why not, and why then doesn't the same argument apply to Eve's semblance to the heavenly mother?

That is a good question, I think the best way to answer that question is this. God is the Father of our spirits, but not our bodies. Adam's body was formed out of the dust of the earth and was made in the image of God the Father. Eve's body was also made in the image of God, but not God the Father, and part of her body was made from the rib taken from Adam. The body and the spirit are not the same. We do believe that God the Father and His wife have Resurrected spiritual bodies, but how and when they came to be we don't know.

 

[dzheremi]

I'm not sure how that answers my question. God being the father of our spirits and not our bodies has nothing to do with what the Bible says about God taking a rib from Adam to create Eve. My point is that if Eve was made in a certain way as the express image of the heavenly mother (and specifically not the heavenly father, since she's a woman), and she was made from Adam's rib (note: there's nothing to do with spirit here), as the Holy Scriptures testify (Genesis 2:22), then does that mean that the heavenly mother was created similarly from a rib of god the father? And if not, why not? And also if not, then why would an argument against that not then also apply to the creation of Eve, if she is as she is because the holy mother is as she is?

I know that's confusing wording, but well...the Mormon creation story is confusing. Hopefully you can understand it well enough to answer it, at least. The point is that it doesn't make sense to offer this conception wherein the parent-gods have this relation to their children if in order to do so you have to ignore their children's relation to each other, because once you look at that it completely breaks the Mormon insistence that the heavenly mother must exist because Eve is a lady or whatever. Eve was made from Adam's rib. Is the Mormon Adam a lady? He'd have to be, right, in order to make one, or else why couldn't God the Father similarly make ladies with no heavenly consort needed? Is Adam able to do something God cannot, even when the scriptures say that it was God's doing that Eve was created this way?

It seems to me you can either believe in Genesis or you can believe in the Mormon creation narrative, but you probably can't do both without doing significant, likely fatal damage to one or the other.

 

[He is the way]

I'm not sure how that answers my question. God being the father of our spirits and not our bodies has nothing to do with what the Bible says about God taking a rib from Adam to create Eve. My point is that if Eve was made in a certain way as the express image of the heavenly mother (and specifically not the heavenly father, since she's a woman), and she was made from Adam's rib (note: there's nothing to do with spirit here), as the Holy Scriptures testify (Genesis 2:22), then does that mean that the heavenly mother was created similarly from a rib of god the father? And if not, why not? And also if not, then why would an argument against that not then also apply to the creation of Eve, if she is as she is because the holy mother is as she is?

I know that's confusing wording, but well...the Mormon creation story is confusing. Hopefully you can understand it well enough to answer it, at least. The point is that it doesn't make sense to offer this conception wherein the parent-gods have this relation to their children if in order to do so you have to ignore their children's relation to each other, because once you look at that it completely breaks the Mormon insistence that the heavenly mother must exist because Eve is a lady or whatever. Eve was made from Adam's rib. Is the Mormon Adam a lady? He'd have to be, right, in order to make one, or else why couldn't God the Father similarly make ladies with no heavenly consort needed? Is Adam able to do something God cannot, even when the scriptures say that it was God's doing that Eve was created this way?

It seems to me you can either believe in Genesis or you can believe in the Mormon creation narrative, but you probably can't do both without doing significant, likely fatal damage to one or the other.

I am trying to figure out what you are asking here. Adam is nor a lady, nor can Adam do something that God can not do. Both men and women have ribs although men's ribs are usually larger. So God took a rib from Adam and formed a woman. I believe that she was formed in the likeness of the Mother of her spirit. And Adam was formed in the likeness of his Father's spirit.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I believe the doctrine is from the Bible:

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26 - 27)

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Man is in the image of the Father, Eve is in the image of her mother. The "us" and "our" referrers to the Father and the Mother.

"So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." - Genesis 1:27

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I already looked it up a long time ago. The only mention of a third heaven was Paul saying that he knew a man who found himself caught up into the third heaven (2 Corinthians 2:12). Some have concluded that the first heaven is earths atmosphere, the second heaven is outer space, the third heaven is God's dwelling place. So it is understandable as to how Mormons come up with a "terrestrial/celestial. But there is absolutely nothing in scripture that even suggest some kind of works based hierarchy of heavens. However some charismatic traditions believe that the second heaven is the battlegrounds of the demonic forces and angels. But the Bible nowhere mentions there being any place for the soul other than heaven or hell.

The numbered heavens are seven. Both in Hebrew and ancient near eastern culture in general counted seven heavens; with the number seven tending to have symbolic meaning, being associated with things divine and perfect.

In the literature of the 2nd Temple Period, such as the Book of Enoch, the Garden of Eden--Paradise--is seen in the the third heaven. This language would have been very familiar to Paul so that to catch a glimpse of Paradise would mean to have been caught up to the third heaven.

God, however, is higher than all the heavens. Indeed, Solomon says, "The heavens, not even the heavens of heavens, can contain You, how much less this house which I have built!" This phrase heavens of heavens follows a common Hebrew motif. Consider king of kings, lord of lords, holy of holies, etc. It refers to the highest or most sublime; the heavens of heavens refers to the most sublime, highest heavens--the most unfathomable heights beyond which nothing is even conceivable. God is beyond even this. God is not contained, not even by the most sublime heights conceivable by man--but is always more vast, more immense, more sublime than this.

Taken together we shouldn't attempt to imagine that the numbered heavens are some kind of heavenly geography. But rather part of a cultural language common to Semitic and other Near Eastern peoples; the revelation, the majesty, here isn't the number of heavens but rather the God who is above and beyond all comprehension and imagination who nevertheless has deigned to speak to us, and share Himself with us, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter1000]

There are three heavens in your religion. Non-Mormons who don't accept your religion can't be in Heavenly Father's presence. They are banished to one of the lower kingdoms.

Doctrine and Covenants 132
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

"Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality."
Marion G. Romney of the First Presidency, General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14

"In order to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom, we must gain the trust of the Lord here on earth. We gain the trust of the Lord through earning it, and that is accomplished through our actual performance in living His [Mormon]gospel and keeping our covenants. In other words, we earn the trust of the Lord by doing His will."
Richard J. Maynes, “Keeping Our Covenants,” Ensign, Nov. 2004, 92

“The Lord will judge each individual case and will assign transgressor to that degree to which each is entitled according to his works. If a man only merits a place in the telestial, that will be his reward; if it should be the terrestrial, then he shall be admitted to that kingdom. In order to enter the celestial a man must be true and faithful to the end, observing all things which the Lord has commanded, otherwise he shall be assigned to some other kingdom, or to outer darkness if his sins so merit.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:310

“Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the [Mormon]gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, ‘Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit’ (D&C 19:16-18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.”
Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 292

Constantly skimming over the details isn't helpful to those non-Mormons who want to learn what Mormonism actually teaches.

It is not the acceptance of our religion. It is the acceptance of the necessary covenants and ordinances that will allow you to enter the highest kingdom.

In contrast, it is the rejection of those same covenants and ordinances that are necessary to enter, that will keep you out of the KOG. It is simple and biblical.

 

[He is the way]

"So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." - Genesis 1:27

-CryptoLutheran

So the Gods created human beings in their own image, in the image of the Gods they created them; male and female they created them.

 

[dzheremi]

So the Gods created human beings in their own image, in the image of the Gods they created them; male and female they created them.

This just doesn't work at all. Linguistically, it is a misinterpretation. I'm assuming that you are focusing on elohim being a plural noun, which it is, but what you have apparently missed is that all the verb forms that connect those verbs back to the agent of the sentence (God/Elohim) are in the third person masculine singular, not the plural (in which Hebrew also had and has a gender distinction, unlike modern English; see the last link in this post for it in Biblical Hebrew).

(Screen captured from a Hebrew-English interlinear here, since I can't type in Hebrew)

Note that every occurrence of a verb which relates back to "elohim" is in the third person masculine singular. It is not a gender neutral third-person pronoun; in other words, it is not "they", because Hebrew -- like English -- preserves the gender distinction in its third person pronouns; that is how they are able to drop the pronoun from the sentence and still keep track of who they are talking about, and that is why you see above in every highlighted verb form (with red lines underneath the gloss) the abbreviation 3ms, meaning third person masculine singular: "he". So it is "he created", and "his own image", not "they created" and "their own image". If it was going to be "they", the verb forms would've been different than they actually are. This is not a matter of interpretation, but a matter of the grammar of the language.

(Yes, and all of this was absolutely true of Biblical Hebrew as well. Gender distinction in the third person is not something that modern Hebrew developed over time or borrowed from somewhere else.)

 

[Rescued One]

There are three heavens in your religion. Non-Mormons who don't accept your religion can't be in Heavenly Father's presence. They are banished to one of the lower kingdoms.

“Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the [Mormon]gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, ‘Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit’ (D&C 19:16-18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.”
Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 292

It is not the acceptance of our religion. It is the acceptance of the necessary covenants and ordinances that will allow you to enter the highest kingdom.

In contrast, it is the rejection of those same covenants and ordinances that are necessary to enter, that will keep you out of the KOG. It is simple and biblical.

Non-acceptance of your religion is what people are told keeps them out. Your church claims itself to be the kingdom of God.

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life. "
Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

"Therefore it was made clearly manifest that salvation is in the Church, and of the Church, and is obtained only through the Church."
Mark E. Petersen, Salvation Comes through the Church, Ensign, July 1973

 

[Peter1000]

Non-acceptance of your religion is what people are told keeps them out. Your church claims itself to be the kingdom of God.

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life. "
Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

"Therefore it was made clearly manifest that salvation is in the Church, and of the Church, and is obtained only through the Church."
Mark E. Petersen, Salvation Comes through the Church, Ensign, July 1973

OK have it your way. They must believe, and faith, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This saves them into heaven.

If they want to be in the higher levels of heaven, that is what it is talking about when it says taht we will be judged according to our works. The more good works, the higher the level.

If they want to be in the highest level of heaven then they will get a temple recommend and be married for time and all eternity.

 

[Rescued One]

OK have it your way. They must believe, and faith, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This saves them into heaven.

They must believe that the early church went into complete apostasy; that Joseph Smith restored the church, that Mormonism is true, repent of all their sins, stop smoking, stop drinking alcohol, coffee, and tea, start tithing, be willing to obey all the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church, follow the Mormon prophet, become a member of your church by baptism and the laying on of hands by someone with authority to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If they want to be in the higher levels of heaven, that is what it is talking about when it says taht we will be judged according to our works. The more good works, the higher the level.

According to Mormonism, the highest level of the separate celestial kingdom is the only place where resurrected beings can have eternal life with 2 of your gods. I've been here since 2002 and Mormons have always sought to hide things from unsuspecting non-Mormons. When I'm dead and gone, God will undoubtedly raise up another Christian to fill in the spaces you people leave empty.

If they want to be in the highest level of heaven then they will get a temple recommend and be married for time and all eternity.

If they want to have eternal life, they will get a temple recommend, get their endowments, be washed from the sins of this generation, get their temple garments(underwear), have a temple marriage, make covenants that they aren't told about prior to being there.

"3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [Mormon]Gospel."
Articles of Faith 1

 

[ViaCrucis]

So the Gods created human beings in their own image, in the image of the Gods they created them; male and female they created them.

So you want to replace "God" with "Gods" everywhere we find the word elohim, or just where it's most convenient for your particular doctrines?

-CryptoLutheran