LCMS- what is going on?

C.F.W. Walther · May 14, 2007

Great then what do you suggest? The ultra conservatives are the only ones that make the issue public. Maybe not in the most expeditious way but at least they do something. I never hear anything from the moderates except train the congregation in the Bible. Nothing wrong with that but I would at least think that they would think that there should be some pro-active work? Right or wrong at least the Ultra conservatives are doing something......or more anyway.

DaSeminarian · May 14, 2007

Radidio said:
Yep and Otten was one of many that brought about reform in the LCMS to keep it from being liberal. Casione is also mentioned to. You going to degrade him to for his fight against liberals?

Ahem! I am not an Otten fan at all. I have read his newspaper and while there are a few good articles every now and again, I use the paper to line my cat's litter box. I see the paper as a Christian version of National Inquirer.

I also quit going to LQ because Cascione owns it. The crowd there never changes.

synger · May 14, 2007

Okay, okay.. you guys have some disagreements about method and emphasis, though it does seem you agree that there is a problem.

Let me ask in more practical terms, since that might get us out of the theoretical...

My husband and I, and others from our confessional, conservative congregation, will be attending our districts Summer Conference. They will definitely be talking about Ablaze! While we are not "active" in the Ablaze! movement, we are aware of the push toward it.

So what can we do, as conservative confessionals who are attending this, to bring our concerns forward? What sorts of questions should we ask in our sessions? What sorts of danger signs should we look for? Is there a "secret confessional handshake" we should look for to identify others who aren't all that happy with Ablaze! and whom we might be able to connect with?

One of the concerns I keep hearing here is that no one's doing anything about it. Hard to do anything when you're not real sure what's going on.

C.F.W. Walther · May 14, 2007

First thing would be to get info on Ablaze. Here's one site. Another is to just Google the word Ablaze.
http://www.geocities.com/ablaze_calc/

synger · May 14, 2007

Strangely, I didn't find that link very useful. *sighs* Maybe I'm just dense, but it seemed to be rather vague vitriol thrown at the Ablaze program without an real meat as to the whys or wherefores.. or better yet, any suggestions. It seemed to assume that I understood which parts were parody and which were warning... It was only after reading that "Lutheran Church Missouri Synod has announced that it will soon begin publishing the "Bible for Ablaze Dialoguing" (BAD)Version." that I realized some of the other things I was reading might be "parody" as well.

Googling "Ablaze" just got me the normal Ablaze sites, which I've already read. I finally found a rather coherent critique on the Ablaze numbering thing from the reclaimingwalther site, but wasn't able to find anything else about it on that site.

Most of the other things I found by googling "ablaze lcms" were either official sites or congregational sites. And most of the info had an update date of 2004 or so.

So let's see if I have this straight:

Ablaze has a goal of telling the Gospel to a certain number of people by a certain date. This runs into all sorts of statistical nightmares dealing with how you count these numbers and whether your numbers are good. But by and large, the point is to evangelize.
Ablaze (or at least one of the speakers last summer) seems to be borrowing some "witnessing" language from other denominations, including using tools like the Gospel Story silicone bracelet complete with notes on how to witness like a fine upstanding decision-theology-based Arminian.
That being said, they also seem to be emphasizing the sort of neighbor-to-neighbor, friend-to-friend sharing of the faith that Christians are called to do.

So is it the aim that is wrong? The method (in the case of the decision theology thing, I definitely have my reservations)? The emphasis on numbers? The emphasis on evangelism? How can telling people about Christ's grace and mercy to sinful man be a BAD thing??

I keep hearing that Ablaze is a terrible thing that is tearing the synod apart. I'm trying to understand why this outreach program is so bad, when the only two things I've really found problems with are the statistical stupidity of it (but hey, I'm a Fed, so bean-counting is one of those no-brainers to me), and the emphasis that ONE speaker at last year's conference had on decision theology. I'm not sure if that's Ablaze-wide, or was just this one guy's thing.

I'm really confused about this, because I know this summer conference is coming up. I plan to attend mostly the Prayer Minstry and Gospel Sharing tracks. And I want to be able to discern the important and useful things, from the superfluous, from the downright doctrinally dangerous.

DaRev · May 14, 2007

While the core idea for the Ablaze program is OK, the problems I have with it include some of the methodology that is employed (which you have already alluded to) and the fact that it is a counting and deadline based program. I don't like the idea of having to reach a quota. If I need to minister to someone for a length of time in order for them to hear the Gospel, I don't want to have to say "Sorry, I can't talk to you any more because I have 100 more people to talk to this month." Some folks need more of my time than others, and I want to be able to give it to them.
It takes the emphasis off of the Gospel and puts it onto techniques and gimmicks. It's not a good way to evangelize at all.

synger · May 14, 2007

DaRev said:
It takes the emphasis off of the Gospel and puts it onto techniques and gimmicks. It's not a good way to evangelize at all.

Thank you for the clarification. It helps a lot to hear some of the specific concerns our pastors have with this program. (now I just have to look up some of the other things mentioned in this thread)

As to the techniques and gimmicks, I mostly agree. We have to be clear in how we present the Gospel that we don't fall into the decision theology trap. However, I can't tell you how many times I've been glad to have a few evangelizing "tips and gimmicks" from my college time in an outreach-oriented church. Yeah, the doctrine was Arminian decision-theology... but if you know your doctrine (and that's a big if), you can tailor the techniques to help you start conversations about the things of God. Sometimes (or maybe this is just me) starting a conversation about faith is much harder to do than actually sharing the Gospel once we're talking. So some of the tips I've learned have come in handy, though I certainly don't push the decision stuff (and never have, since it's not Reformed either). In fact, one of my disappointments in looking for pre-printed "witnessing materials" is that is almost all has that decision focus. In some ways, though, that's probably good. It's made me look twice as hard, and tailor materials I do find so that they are more doctrinally sound.

Thank you again for your response. You really helped clarify the Ablaze issues.

Now to go back to reclaimingwalther and see what they have to say about these other topics.

TheCosmicGospel · May 15, 2007

Each administration has had its hype. From Tell the Good News, Spell the Good News, Share the Good News, Wear the Good News....

Can anyone recall Barry's Fourpoint Approach?

Ablaze will go down in flames as the hypest of them all.

The greatest evangelism the LCMS could do is to start applying God's Word to its own litagation/jurisdictional/ judicial/political processes so when it talks about "Good News" we all have a good understanding of what is meant. Otherwise Ablaze will appear to be nothing more than "success by numbers game" to keep our eyes off the real issues - like loss of membership.

I always thought God was doing our congregations a favor by not sending them new members when they were only going to continue being self-centered and contentious. What's that about things beginning at home first? Like integrity, honesty. Nah, not LCMS. We want to wander about the neighborhood telling everybody about the Good News so we get style points.

The "oompah" of this parade will fade long before 2015. But this is only my poor pastoral opinion as a former LCMS pastor who felt this way long before my departure.

Here is something I found in a FAQ page about Ablaze.

http://www.geocities.com/ablaze_calc/Faq4_2
"In July 2004, The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in convention accepted the challenge to share the Good News of Jesus with 100 million people by 2017, the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. It is the Spirit's work to create faith in the hearts and minds of those who hear the Good News of Jesus. But it is our work, commanded by God, to share that Good News, and we have decided to do it in the least God-pleasing way we know how. We will out Baptist the Baptists this time! We will out Methodize the Methodists! We will even out knock-knock the Jehovah's Witnesses, and out bygamize the Mormons! Oh, wait, forget that last thing. I just got carried away."

"Many Lutheran people will simply share the Good News in their own time and in their own way. They may not report the results to anyone, but our Lord will rejoice in their faithfulness. Of course, that doesn't help our numbers one #@& bit. Some will want to report to their fellow Lutherans what God has accomplished through their sharing of the Good News. That's where we come in. Their reports will validate our fragile egos, prove the worth of the massive bureaucracy our synod has built up, help executives with high-paying, low risk jobs justify their salaries, and further bankrupt our synod, both financially and theologically."

"On the Ablaze!© page of its Web site, LCMS World Mission offers an opportunity to report witnessing activity for those who want to encourage others to share the Good News of Jesus. The examples you provide give us reason to rejoice at our job security, and they strengthen our resolve to share our crypto-Arminianism with those around us. Please share with your fellow believers what God has shown you about sharing the Good News of Jesus. And by that, we don't mean look to God's Word, we mean talk up our website."

So is Ablaze being used in any fashion that follows the other synodical programs? Why did they flounder? What did they teach us in the use of programs? How does Ablaze apply those lessons? These are some of the questions I would want answered if I was approaching Ablaze methodology. How does it differ from what has been used in the past? Where did this idea come from? If you followed this string home, who or what would be sitting on the couch? Would they be holding an axe or another farm tool?

Peace,
Cos

DaRev · May 15, 2007

TheCosmicGospel said:
Each administration has had its hype. From Tell the Good News, Spell the Good News, Share the Good News, Wear the Good News....

Can anyone recall Barry's Fourpoint Approach?

Ablaze will go down in flames as the hypest of them all.

The greatest evangelism the LCMS could do is to start applying God's Word to its own litagation/jurisdictional/ judicial/political processes so when it talks about "Good News" we all have a good understanding of what is meant. Otherwise Ablaze will appear to be nothing more than "success by numbers game" to keep our eyes off the real issues - like loss of membership.

I always thought God was doing our congregations a favor by not sending them new members when they were only going to continue being self-centered and contentious. What's that about things beginning at home first? Like integrity, honesty. Nah, not LCMS. We want to wander about the neighborhood telling everybody about the Good News so we get style points.

The "oompah" of this parade will fade long before 2015. But this is only my poor pastoral opinion as a former LCMS pastor who felt this way long before my departure.

Here is something I found in a FAQ page about Ablaze.

http://www.geocities.com/ablaze_calc/Faq4_2
"In July 2004, The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in convention accepted the challenge to share the Good News of Jesus with 100 million people by 2017, the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. It is the Spirit's work to create faith in the hearts and minds of those who hear the Good News of Jesus. But it is our work, commanded by God, to share that Good News, and we have decided to do it in the least God-pleasing way we know how. We will out Baptist the Baptists this time! We will out Methodize the Methodists! We will even out knock-knock the Jehovah's Witnesses, and out bygamize the Mormons! Oh, wait, forget that last thing. I just got carried away."

"Many Lutheran people will simply share the Good News in their own time and in their own way. They may not report the results to anyone, but our Lord will rejoice in their faithfulness. Of course, that doesn't help our numbers one #@& bit. Some will want to report to their fellow Lutherans what God has accomplished through their sharing of the Good News. That's where we come in. Their reports will validate our fragile egos, prove the worth of the massive bureaucracy our synod has built up, help executives with high-paying, low risk jobs justify their salaries, and further bankrupt our synod, both financially and theologically."

"On the Ablaze!© page of its Web site, LCMS World Mission offers an opportunity to report witnessing activity for those who want to encourage others to share the Good News of Jesus. The examples you provide give us reason to rejoice at our job security, and they strengthen our resolve to share our crypto-Arminianism with those around us. Please share with your fellow believers what God has shown you about sharing the Good News of Jesus. And by that, we don't mean look to God's Word, we mean talk up our website."

So is Ablaze being used in any fashion that follows the other synodical programs? Why did they flounder? What did they teach us in the use of programs? How does Ablaze apply those lessons? These are some of the questions I would want answered if I was approaching Ablaze methodology. How does it differ from what has been used in the past? Where did this idea come from? If you followed this string home, who or what would be sitting on the couch? Would they be holding an axe or another farm tool?

Peace,
Cos

Flipper · May 15, 2007

I don't think anyone I know who works at Synod still works there. I had been hearing that the work morale there has been dismal as long as I've been a Lutheran, which is since 1997 (OMGosh - Palm Sunday was my 10th anniversary of being confirmed Lutheran and I forgot - bad me!). They also do things that you would only think happens in big businesses, like downsizing, and changing the requirements of positions so people working in those positions for 20+ years get pushed out. I always wondered if the infighting could be influencing that as well.

filosofer · May 15, 2007

Radidio said:
Great then what do you suggest? The ultra conservatives are the only ones that make the issue public. Maybe not in the most expeditious way but at least they do something. I never hear anything from the moderates except train the congregation in the Bible. Nothing wrong with that but I would at least think that they would think that there should be some pro-active work? Right or wrong at least the Ultra conservatives are doing something......or more anyway.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
I suspect I am in this category, since I advocate Biblical studies in the congregation as the key.

1. I was in the Navy 30+ years ago on an aircraft carrier. When going normal "cruising" speed, it takes 3 miles to turn around an aircraft carrier. Doesn't matter what else is going on. It takes time.

2. So in a congregation. It takes 3-5 years to build a solid Biblical base to begin to turn a congregation. I have witnessed many pastors who try to change things in 1-3 years without the "promised success", who end up leaving or become very discouraged and then do nothing.

3. The real tragedy is that I have seen very, very few pastors who have a clue about how to teach and develop a long term teaching ministry to grow disciples and equip those people for their roles in the in the Body of Christ (all very Lutheran terms and understanding).

Isn't it ironic that the one aptitude that a pastor is to have is "apt to teach" (1 Timothy 3:2), yet many can not, or worse will not teach. Sadly, some pastors spend 1-2 hours preparing to teach and consider that adequate. My question is: adequate for what? This conclusion comes from more than a half century of observing pastors all over the country. The truth that God's Word will not return void but will accomplish his purposes [Isaiah 55], and God works through his Word [1 Thes. 2:13] is still true, even if the pastor doesn't do it or do it well. But that is no excuse for the pastor not to teach, and do all he can to teach well.

4. Conclusion? Change has to happen at the congregational level, and that takes time. For a pastor/observer outside that congregation (even if circuit counselor or district president or synodical president) to begin making demands if "things don't straighten out (according to my ideas") without understanding some of these dynamics is not healthy. And there is the rub: some of these elected pastors have no more clue than many of the pastors of what is necessary for teaching and leading a congegation. It doesn't matter whether the pastors are "liberal, moderate or confessional". Thus exhortations to "just be confessional" sounds good but that is nothing more than sound-bite theology to win the political race.

5. A national/regional structure/organization is even more difficult because it is not word/sacrament ministry, but law-based (by necessity). Hence, scorecard mentality is "natural", although sometimes hidden from sight. Change happens in this environment through law-based initiatives. Don't think so? Look at every convention, every direction from a regional/national office and what do you see?

6. So the idea that "only the ultra conservatives are doing something" is not accurate. Perhaps they are more vocal in the law-based national organization. Does their voice need to be heard? Yep. But at the congregational level I have seen some of the ultra conservative pastors and how they "minister"; which is at times high-handed law-based ultimatums covered with a veneer of "Gospel-ness". BTW, I have seen the same approach and tactics from "liberal" pastors. No thanks, neither side provides what is needed in the congregation and for change throughout the church body.

Ah, well... just some more ramblings from an old codger...

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

DaRev · May 15, 2007

filosofer said:
I suspect I am in this category, since I advocate Biblical studies in the congregation as the key.

1. I was in the Navy 30+ years ago on an aircraft carrier. When going normal "cruising" speed, it takes 3 miles to turn around an aircraft carrier. Doesn't matter what else is going on. It takes time.

2. So in a congregation. It takes 3-5 years to build a solid Biblical base to begin to turn a congregation. I have witnessed many pastors who try to change things in 1-3 years without the "promised success", who end up leaving or become very discouraged and then do nothing.

3. The real tragedy is that I have seen very, very few pastors who have a clue about how to teach and develop a long term teaching ministry to grow disciples and equip those people for their roles in the in the Body of Christ (all very Lutheran terms and understanding).

Isn't it ironic that the one aptitude that a pastor is to have is "apt to teach" (1 Timothy 3:2), yet many can not, or worse will not teach. Sadly, some pastors spend 1-2 hours preparing to teach and consider that adequate. My question is: adequate for what? This conclusion comes from more than a half century of observing pastors all over the country. The truth that God's Word will not return void but will accomplish his purposes [Isaiah 55], and God works through his Word [1 Thes. 2:13] is still true, even if the pastor doesn't do it or do it well. But that is no excuse for the pastor not to teach, and do all he can to teach well.

4. Conclusion? Change has to happen at the congregational level, and that takes time. For a pastor/observer outside that congregation (even if circuit counselor or district president or synodical president) to begin making demands if "things don't straighten out (according to my ideas") without understanding some of these dynamics is not healthy. And there is the rub: some of these elected pastors have no more clue than many of the pastors of what is necessary for teaching and leading a congegation. It doesn't matter whether the pastors are "liberal, moderate or confessional". Thus exhortations to "just be confessional" sounds good but that is nothing more than sound-bite theology to win the political race.

5. A national/regional structure/organization is even more difficult because it is not word/sacrament ministry, but law-based (by necessity). Hence, scorecard mentality is "natural", although sometimes hidden from sight. Change happens in this environment through law-based initiatives. Don't think so? Look at every convention, every direction from a regional/national office and what do you see?

6. So the idea that "only the ultra conservatives are doing something" is not accurate. Perhaps they are more vocal in the law-based national organization. Does their voice need to be heard? Yep. But at the congregational level I have seen some of the ultra conservative pastors and how they "minister"; which is at times high-handed law-based ultimatums covered with a veneer of "Gospel-ness". BTW, I have seen the same approach and tactics from "liberal" pastors. No thanks, neither side provides what is needed in the congregation and for change throughout the church body.

Ah, well... just some more ramblings from an old codger...

In Christ's love,
filo

Great post!!

(I'd rep ya if you had a reppy thing.)

Studeclunker · May 15, 2007

Very well said, Filo. Still, how do we as laymen, effect these changes? How can we, as laymen, steer our church back onto the proper course. How can we, as laymen, deal with the district and synod Presidents who are advocating a liberal agenda? There are many in the ELCA who avocated exactly what you suggested. Yes, there are many conservative, confessional ELCA congregations. Still their sect is in serious trouble over all. Perhaps, we need someone like you working in the synod leadership to steer the LCMS back onto the right course. If the helmsman is clueless, the ship will wander 'to and fro with the winds of popular culture'. Such as appears to be our current situation.

filosofer · May 15, 2007

Studeclunker said:
Very well said, Filo. Still, how do we as laymen, effect these changes? How can we, as laymen, steer our church back onto the proper course. How can we, as laymen, deal with the district and synod Presidents who are advocating a liberal agenda? There are many in the ELCA who avocated exactly what you suggested. Yes, there are many conservative, confessional ELCA congregations. Still their sect is in serious trouble over all. Perhaps, we need someone like you working in the synod leadership to steer the LCMS back onto the right course. If the helmsman is clueless, the ship will wander 'to and fro with the winds of popular culture'. Such as appears to be our current situation.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Good questions. First, I don't have all the answers. I have changed much over the past 30+ years as I have learned and grown and been shown the errors of some of my thinking.

I had been LCMS until 2 years ago, now I am in the AALC. However, I teach bible classes at an LCMS congregation, mentoring two pastors on these very issues. While I have been teaching here for four years, it is finally beginning to pay dividends. The senior pastor (who has been a pastor for 28 years) has truly caught the vision of what I am advocating... his preaching and teaching have changed over the past four years as well. His primary concern? "Why wasn't I taught any of this before? Why did I struggle for 25 years in his ministry - and no one knew there was a problem, and no one offered to help me?" And he has been and is soldily confessional and evangelical in the best sense of those words.

Individually:

As for laity, the place to start is with yourself. Are you in bible study (individual and group)? If not, why not? Ask questions in Bible study; they don't have to be offensive questions or obnoxious or arrogant. Ask legitimate questions. If something doesn't sound right, don't go on the offensive against the pastor. Don't assume you are right automatically. Don't assume he is playing games. Be upfront. Ask why? How? (i.e. How does this fit with Article IV of the Augsburg Confession?, etc.). Dig more. Perhaps the pastor is struggling to learn more - walk with as he does. Support him, encourage him. At the same time, don't take everything automatically as if everything the pastor says is absolute.

Personally as I pastor I encourage questions, the more the better. If, as pastors, we are afraid of questions, then we have much bigger problems than whether we are "confessional". Ask Byzantine Dixie about how I permit questions, she has been in one of my face-to-face studies.

Congregational level:

I would say it begins with asking questions of the pastor and elders. If a pastor is not teaching Bible classes for a variety of needs, then why not? Part of the teaching is Adult instruction, part is ongoing in-depth bible study, part is equipping gifted leaders to teach in specific contexts, and then provide on-going training and support for them. This includes Sunday School teachers. If the Sunday School teachers don't want to be in Bible study, then they shouldn't teach Sunday School. What's so hard about that?

What about other church leaders? If an elder is not in Bible study, then there is an oxymoron involved. Worse, that person should not be an elder... check out Scripture [2 Peter 3:18, etc.]. If any church leader or Sunday School teacher is not in Bible, why? There is something dramatically wrong with this picture.

Congregations have way too many meetings! If the pastor has to make a decision on whether to attend monthly meetings of every group in the congregation or teach Bible study, there is no decision to be made. In my last congregation I attended the Elders' Mtg and the Church Council. If people can't handle running a meeting without the pastor, then they ought not to have the meeting. If God has gifted them for leadership, let them lead.

Most of the time the wrong people are serving on boards and committees. If a person is gifted in a certain area, that person should not be on the board/committee, i.e. if a person is a gifted teacher, he/she should be teaching, not serving on the board, or if a person is gifted in evangelism, then the last place the person should be is on the Evangelism/Mission board. Conversely, if some is gifted in leadership, then develop that person to lead.

Circuit/Regional/National level:

Ask questions. Attend circuit/regional meetings. Find out why something is worded the way it is. Even is someone has a bunch of alphabet soup titles that doesn't make that person right or more persuasive. (You know what "PhD" means: piled higher and deeper, and sometimes pastors can achieve this without the degree!)

Attitude is important. I have seen good issues undermined by people who demonstrate arrogance and bitterness. Consider Paul's words: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23) "Therefore an overseer must be... self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, " (1 Timothy 3). Well, you get the idea.

All of this takes humility, time, patience, and confidence that God is concerned with his church and with outreach to the lost.

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

TheCosmicGospel · May 15, 2007

Studeclunker said:
Very well said, Filo. Still, how do we as laymen, effect these changes? How can we, as laymen, steer our church back onto the proper course. How can we, as laymen, deal with the district and synod Presidents who are advocating a liberal agenda? There are many in the ELCA who avocated exactly what you suggested. Yes, there are many conservative, confessional ELCA congregations. Still their sect is in serious trouble over all. Perhaps, we need someone like you working in the synod leadership to steer the LCMS back onto the right course. If the helmsman is clueless, the ship will wander 'to and fro with the winds of popular culture'. Such as appears to be our current situation.

It could be an interesting summer indeed. I think these conservative, confessional ELCA congregations (these hijacked ALC members as I see it) are beginning to stand up and say, "enough of you buggers". At some point you must wonder what this ship is offering you and take your canoe and go in the opposite direction.

If the congregation is the church and the synod is only the "advisory body" as Walther premised, then if a new direction is needed, who is going to take it? This I see Word Alone and LCMC doing and could be the model confessional LCMS needs to take to rectify the probs that Stude points to.

I am sorry Rev, if I took offense at your words of being "outside" and being "critical" cause I "abandoned" LCMS. Be asured this was not the case. I want to be working with you as your brother in Christ here in this forum and wherever we serve in the Body of Christ. Forgive me.

Peace,
Cos

C.F.W. Walther · May 15, 2007

filosofer said:
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]
I suspect I am in this category, since I advocate Biblical studies in the congregation as the key.

1. I was in the Navy 30+ years ago on an aircraft carrier. When going normal "cruising" speed, it takes 3 miles to turn around an aircraft carrier. Doesn't matter what else is going on. It takes time.

2. So in a congregation. It takes 3-5 years to build a solid Biblical base to begin to turn a congregation. I have witnessed many pastors who try to change things in 1-3 years without the "promised success", who end up leaving or become very discouraged and then do nothing.

3. The real tragedy is that I have seen very, very few pastors who have a clue about how to teach and develop a long term teaching ministry to grow disciples and equip those people for their roles in the in the Body of Christ (all very Lutheran terms and understanding).

Isn't it ironic that the one aptitude that a pastor is to have is "apt to teach" (1 Timothy 3:2), yet many can not, or worse will not teach. Sadly, some pastors spend 1-2 hours preparing to teach and consider that adequate. My question is: adequate for what? This conclusion comes from more than a half century of observing pastors all over the country. The truth that God's Word will not return void but will accomplish his purposes [Isaiah 55], and God works through his Word [1 Thes. 2:13] is still true, even if the pastor doesn't do it or do it well. But that is no excuse for the pastor not to teach, and do all he can to teach well.

4. Conclusion? Change has to happen at the congregational level, and that takes time. For a pastor/observer outside that congregation (even if circuit counselor or district president or synodical president) to begin making demands if "things don't straighten out (according to my ideas") without understanding some of these dynamics is not healthy. And there is the rub: some of these elected pastors have no more clue than many of the pastors of what is necessary for teaching and leading a congegation. It doesn't matter whether the pastors are "liberal, moderate or confessional". Thus exhortations to "just be confessional" sounds good but that is nothing more than sound-bite theology to win the political race.

5. A national/regional structure/organization is even more difficult because it is not word/sacrament ministry, but law-based (by necessity). Hence, scorecard mentality is "natural", although sometimes hidden from sight. Change happens in this environment through law-based initiatives. Don't think so? Look at every convention, every direction from a regional/national office and what do you see?

6. So the idea that "only the ultra conservatives are doing something" is not accurate. Perhaps they are more vocal in the law-based national organization. Does their voice need to be heard? Yep. But at the congregational level I have seen some of the ultra conservative pastors and how they "minister"; which is at times high-handed law-based ultimatums covered with a veneer of "Gospel-ness". BTW, I have seen the same approach and tactics from "liberal" pastors. No thanks, neither side provides what is needed in the congregation and for change throughout the church body.

Ah, well... just some more ramblings from an old codger...

In Christ's love,
filo
[/FONT]

I actually agree with you---but do we have the time for this? This will take years to educate the church. Will it all be lost by then? Hope not. LCMS is almost on it's last legs now.

C.F.W. Walther · May 15, 2007

filosopher said:
[FONT="Book Antiqua"] Attitude is important. I have seen good issues undermined by people who demonstrate arrogance and bitterness. Consider Paul's words: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23) "Therefore an overseer must be... self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, " (1 Timothy 3). Well, you get the idea.
[/FONT]

As always filo your wisdom has shown me my errors. I apologize to everyone who I have ever offended and hope that God allows me to help in in His ministry. Pray for me not to be arrogant and bitter and that they only see Jesus.

filosofer · May 15, 2007

Radidio said:
I actually agree with you---but do we have the time for this? This will take years to educate the church. Will it all be lost by then? Hope not. LCMS is almost on it's last legs now.

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I agree about the time issue. On the other hand, the LCMS (and other church bodies) have been jumping from one "program" to another for more than a half century, and look what has happened with that approach.

As I admitted, I don't know the solution. I am helping make a difference in one LCMS congregation (actually two or three now because the senior pastor has been influencing other LCMS pastors in the circuit with what he has learned). Also, I have been mentoring a newer pastor in the AALC, specifically related to the teaching ministry and mission outreach. And I was the Bible study leader at the National convention of AALC last year and will be again this year, where I plant these ideas, and challenge pastors and lay people to be in the Word, and begin making Biblical decisions based on sound Biblical doctrine.

Ya plant the seeds, and water, and let God cause the growth.

I just know that the methods/programs/packaged approach has not worked. And political manuevering undermines the church's work.

In Christ's love,
filo
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filosofer · May 15, 2007

Radidio said:
As always filo your wisdom has shown me my errors. I apologize to everyone who I have ever offended and hope that God allows me to help in in His ministry. Pray for me not to be arrogant and bitter and that they only see Jesus.

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I, too, have sinned, perhaps not on this board, but I have caused problems, made bad decisions, overlooked people and ministry opportunities, etc. etc.

BUT through confession and now absolution, the certainty of God's forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ is yours, mine and ours (better than the movie!).

And this is the starting point for turning us around - as individuals, as congregations, and as church bodies.

Isn't it great to be restored in Christ, and to be working on the same team, led by the same Spirit?

In Christ's love,
filo
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DaSeminarian · May 15, 2007

filosofer said:
I suspect I am in this category, since I advocate Biblical studies in the congregation as the key.

1. I was in the Navy 30+ years ago on an aircraft carrier. When going normal "cruising" speed, it takes 3 miles to turn around an aircraft carrier. Doesn't matter what else is going on. It takes time.

2. So in a congregation. It takes 3-5 years to build a solid Biblical base to begin to turn a congregation. I have witnessed many pastors who try to change things in 1-3 years without the "promised success", who end up leaving or become very discouraged and then do nothing.

3. The real tragedy is that I have seen very, very few pastors who have a clue about how to teach and develop a long term teaching ministry to grow disciples and equip those people for their roles in the in the Body of Christ (all very Lutheran terms and understanding).

Isn't it ironic that the one aptitude that a pastor is to have is "apt to teach" (1 Timothy 3:2), yet many can not, or worse will not teach. Sadly, some pastors spend 1-2 hours preparing to teach and consider that adequate. My question is: adequate for what? This conclusion comes from more than a half century of observing pastors all over the country. The truth that God's Word will not return void but will accomplish his purposes [Isaiah 55], and God works through his Word [1 Thes. 2:13] is still true, even if the pastor doesn't do it or do it well. But that is no excuse for the pastor not to teach, and do all he can to teach well.

4. Conclusion? Change has to happen at the congregational level, and that takes time. For a pastor/observer outside that congregation (even if circuit counselor or district president or synodical president) to begin making demands if "things don't straighten out (according to my ideas") without understanding some of these dynamics is not healthy. And there is the rub: some of these elected pastors have no more clue than many of the pastors of what is necessary for teaching and leading a congegation. It doesn't matter whether the pastors are "liberal, moderate or confessional". Thus exhortations to "just be confessional" sounds good but that is nothing more than sound-bite theology to win the political race.

5. A national/regional structure/organization is even more difficult because it is not word/sacrament ministry, but law-based (by necessity). Hence, scorecard mentality is "natural", although sometimes hidden from sight. Change happens in this environment through law-based initiatives. Don't think so? Look at every convention, every direction from a regional/national office and what do you see?

6. So the idea that "only the ultra conservatives are doing something" is not accurate. Perhaps they are more vocal in the law-based national organization. Does their voice need to be heard? Yep. But at the congregational level I have seen some of the ultra conservative pastors and how they "minister"; which is at times high-handed law-based ultimatums covered with a veneer of "Gospel-ness". BTW, I have seen the same approach and tactics from "liberal" pastors. No thanks, neither side provides what is needed in the congregation and for change throughout the church body.

Ah, well... just some more ramblings from an old codger...

In Christ's love,
filo

I agree with DaRev. This is a great post. The problem with many congregations today is that the changes the laity wants to make are not necessarily the best prescribed moves. The other is the time aspect. This generation is full of people with Attention Deficit Disorder especially the Pastors. Patience is no longer the virtue that it once was and the worst group to deal with is the Baby boomer especially if they have not been properly catechized in their youth.

LCMS- what is going on?

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