LCMS Only: Would you support a change to an episcopal polity?

[tampasteve]

Currently the LCMS is officially congregational in structure. However, the President wields much power, much closer in line with a Bishop than a typical president of a congregational association. Would you support changing to an officially episcopal polity with a Bishop and dioceses or do you think the scripture supports a congregational structure as the LCMS has now? If you support it do you think that it is necessary to have valid Apostolic Succession, or is that a nicety, but not a requirement to you? I believe that the LCMS could receive valid AS through their full altar and pulpit fellowship with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia, if they desired it.

 

[LizaMarie]

For me I believe it's necessary. Especially since we believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Unfortunately I'm WELS, not LCMS so I doubt they would ever go for that.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I voted because we are in fellowship with the LCMS; I support Episcopal governance as both Biblical and historic.

In my Synod, Lutheran Church Canada, this is the direction we are currently moving with a complete restructuring; but will be elected in a similar way to our present leadership. Our districts will cease to exist as corporate entities and instead we will have regional Pastors who's only concern will be the spiritual well being of the Pastors and Congregations in their region (the job description sounds like a Bishop,). As does the job of circuit counselor, and Synod president. Counselors will be accountable to the regional Pastors; regional Pastors are accountable to the president. The president will not be the business administrator of the Synod, that will fall upon a hired position.

I'm looking forward to the transition.

 

[JRichard68]

I voted because we are in fellowship with the LCMS; I support Episcopal governance as both Biblical and historic.

In my Synod, Lutheran Church Canada, this is the direction we are currently moving with a complete restructuring; but will be elected in a similar way to our present leadership. Our districts will cease to exist as corporate entities and instead we will have regional Pastors who's only concern will be the spiritual well being of the Pastors and Congregations in their region (the job description sounds like a Bishop,). As does the job of circuit counselor, and Synod president. Counselors will be accountable to the regional Pastors; regional Pastors are accountable to the president. The president will not be the business administrator of the Synod, that will fall upon a hired position.

I'm looking forward to the transition.

Interesting to know. I've just recently joined a Lutheran congregation (LCC) and am still learning a few things, especially about church polity and structure. It appeared to have much of that already, which is one of the things that drew me to the LCC and away from the Evangelical churches.

 

[tampasteve]

I voted because we are in fellowship with the LCMS; I support Episcopal governance as both Biblical and historic.

In my Synod, Lutheran Church Canada, this is the direction we are currently moving with a complete restructuring; but will be elected in a similar way to our present leadership. Our districts will cease to exist as corporate entities and instead we will have regional Pastors who's only concern will be the spiritual well being of the Pastors and Congregations in their region (the job description sounds like a Bishop,). As does the job of circuit counselor, and Synod president. Counselors will be accountable to the regional Pastors; regional Pastors are accountable to the president. The president will not be the business administrator of the Synod, that will fall upon a hired position.

I'm looking forward to the transition.

Are they planning on attempting to validate the orders via another church, such as the Latviansl Lutherans, or rather just the structure but not worrying about Apostolic succession?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Are they planning on attempting to validate the orders via another church, such as the Latviansl Lutherans, or rather just the structure but not worrying about Apostolic succession?

This is not a concern; however when Presidents in ours and the LCMS have been installed, it has not been uncommon for Bishops of other churches that we are in fellowship with to participate in the installations, including the laying on of hands... not that it matters, but some might say we already have AC LOL.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Interesting to know. I've just recently joined a Lutheran congregation (LCC) and am still learning a few things, especially about church polity and structure. It appeared to have much of that already, which is one of the things that drew me to the LCC and away from the Evangelical churches.

I agree, so does the LCMS; but I do believe that a more centralized oversight will result in greater and more uniform unity.

 

[Shane R]

I would like to make a few comments in good faith. My introduction to liturgical Christianity came through the LCMS. For that, I thank them. But here a couple of observations and criticisms from someone who has since entered Holy Orders in an independent Anglican jurisdiction:
1) The structure is already in place to make the switch to an episcopal polity; President Harrison-Archbishop Harrison, District Presidents-Diocesan Bishops, Circuit Visitors-Suffragan Bishops/Bishop Coadjutor. But the theological impetus is not there.
2) Consider the ELDoNA. They are a break-away group from the LCMS whose main issue seems to be polity. Though they also represented a particularly conservative faction of LCMS. The ELDoNA does have a theological document outlining the Lutheran case for episcopacy. http://eldona.org/ELDoNA/Papers_files/An Argument for Lutheran Episcopacy.pdf
3) Subjectively and anecdotally, my experience of the LCMS is that most congregations are too Protestant minded to be comfortable having a bishop. And having a bishop would demand a certain amount of submission to the bishop, which would likely taper some of the liturgical excesses which are a raging point of contention in LCMS circles.
4) We conservative Anglicans would love to work with the LCMS more, but most of our jurisdictions perceive the LCMS attitude to Apostolic Succession as cavalier and view that as a major road-block to cooperation. And they view our somewhat nebulous formularies as an equally major road-block in light of quia subscription to the Book of Concord. So we are at an impasse. But I can speak both languages and I know a few others who can too, perhaps it will be my generation that can make a break-through.

 

[JRichard68]

3) Subjectively and anecdotally, my experience of the LCMS is that most congregations are too Protestant minded to be comfortable having a bishop. And having a bishop would demand a certain amount of submission to the bishop, which would likely taper some of the liturgical excesses which are a raging point of contention in LCMS circles.

How do you mean "liturgical excesses"?

 

[Shane R]

How do you mean "liturgical excesses"?

The ongoing debate centers on whether a contemporary worship service can be compatible with the liturgy. Many congregations that choose to go with that format dispense with the LSB as written and make their own hybrid liturgy. Other issues that are raised by some are the appropriateness of having female acolytes and women involved in the readings and prayers from the Lectern. Another topic of discussion is weekly communion.

There are several places where these questions are discussed (usually within an echo chamber). Many of them can be found from here: Steadfast Lutherans | An international fraternity of confessional Lutheran laymen and pastors, supporting proclamation of Christian doctrine in the new media.

 

[Newtheran]

As much as I like what the LCMS currently stands for, and President Harrison's leadership has been spot on, what happens when a Pharaoh arises who knows not Joseph? There are plenty of examples of top down churches not only within Protestantism but also the RCC itself now that have fallen and a congregational structure is a safeguard against that.

The ongoing debate centers on whether a contemporary worship service can be compatible with the liturgy.

It's not.

Many congregations that choose to go with that format dispense with the LSB as written and make their own hybrid liturgy.

They shouldn't.

Other issues that are raised by some are the appropriateness of having female acolytes and women involved in the readings and prayers from the Lectern.

No.

Another topic of discussion is weekly communion.

Should not be dispensed with as this was the historic practice of the church.

I didn't become Lutheran so I could go to an evangelical church with a sign outside that said "Lutheran".

 

[tampasteve]

I recently saw an opinion article from someone attending the Convention this year as a delegate. He was implying that there would be a vote on changing polity - can anyone clarify this?

Here is the article: LCMS Polity and the Lobbyist

 

[Julian of Norwich]

I recently saw an opinion article from someone attending the Convention this year as a delegate. He was implying that there would be a vote on changing polity - can anyone clarify this?

Here is the article: LCMS Polity and the Lobbyist

I will be very interested in this. As a former Episcopalian along with a former Catholic this polity is interesting to me. I do believe that episcopal polity is shown in the Scriptures, but have also been very aware, in both instances, of the "difficulties" that it can cause. It is not necessary to me (or I wouldn't have become LCMS), but it would be nice for historical reasons. As far as the Real Presence, it's my conviction that He can cause the bread and wine to become Jesus Christ wherever He wants! So again, AS is nice but not necessary.

 

[tampasteve]

I will be very interested in this. As a former Episcopalian along with a former Catholic this polity is interesting to me. I do believe that episcopal polity is shown in the Scriptures, but have also been very aware, in both instances, of the "difficulties" that it can cause. It is not necessary to me (or I wouldn't have become LCMS), but it would be nice for historical reasons. As far as the Real Presence, it's my conviction that He can cause the bread and wine to become Jesus Christ wherever He wants! So again, AS is nice but not necessary.

Completely agree with this. As a lapsed RC, I see value in AS, but I also do not see it as a necessity.

 

[Newtheran]

Perhaps it's worth looking at Eastern Orthodoxy and trying to see how it is that despite the type of church governance that they have in place that they managed to resist the moral and doctrinal issues that overtook other denominations. My own former denomination, the SBC, was pulled back from the brink a generation ago only to retrace its errors in the current age.

 

[tampasteve]

Moral, maybe...but they definitely have their issues too. But I suppose that is always going to be the case with any large organization. Their issues tend to revolve around authority, autocephaly, and occasionally doctrine.

 

[tampasteve]

Can anyone comment on the vote at the LCMS convention on using Bishop as a title or change towards a different polity? I was looking through the convention closing information on the LCMS website but I cannot find anything on that. Was it dropped at the last minute?

 

[Newtheran]

Just listened to an Issues Etc podcast about the convention. Don't recall the polity issue being discussed, but I was sort of half listening to it and half doing other stuff.

After thinking about it since my last post I think I have changed my mind on the issue. I have to say that given the current state of affairs in the world between social media and the internet I think - in addition to it being the historic practice of the church - that an episcopal polity is probably preferable. I can see how a few hundred years ago a congregational structure could protect against centralized corruption but today heresy can spread like wildfire through congregations with modern means of communication. Increasingly I am asking WWOD when faced with questions like this.

An affirmation of the literal 7 day genesis account passed overwhelmingly...as did one about the correct concept of how to welcome others aimed at the false concept of inviting unpentient sinners into fellowship to be hospitable. There was also a successful one calling on LCMS congregations to withdraw from the LWF.

Overall I would call it a success for Christian orthodoxy within the LCMS.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

Can anyone comment on the vote at the LCMS convention on using Bishop as a title or change towards a different polity? I was looking through the convention closing information on the LCMS website but I cannot find anything on that. Was it dropped at the last minute?

I'll need to look at that website (and check podcasts, Newlutheran) to see if I can find anything about polity. I must say, I would prefer an episcopal polity. I hadn't thought of checking the recent convention .

 

[tampasteve]

I'll need to look at that website (and check podcasts, Newlutheran) to see if I can find anything about polity. I must say, I would prefer an episcopal polity. I hadn't thought of checking the recent convention .

I saw it on the agenda before the convention, but I cannot find anything now after the convention...odd. I believe the idea was not a full change, but a move to that possibility by allowing the district and synod Presidents to be styled and called "Bishops", I do not believe it was a full change or had mentioned Apostolic Succession being brought in from Latvia (or wherever).