LCMS gone Liberal?

[JM]

I see this a lot on Twitter, the people in the pew are confessional and conservative, the institution and clergy are not. How liberal is the LCMS?

Any truth to those claims?

 

[Daniel9v9]

The LCMS is a big organisation, so there are bound to be some who push for liberalisation. On the whole, however, I think it would be unfair to characterise the LCMS as going in a liberal direction. The leadership under President Rev. Harrison is firmly orthodox, but he, along with the LCMS, has made some public declarations against white nationalists, and those same radicals have regrettably stirred up a controversy and has called the LCMS liberal. To my knowledge, it's a handful of loud guys on social media spreading some terrible and un-Lutheran and un-Biblical ideas, but for whatever reason, has gotten some media attention. In short, you can disregard them and their claims. They're racists and do not speak for confessional Lutherans.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

And there is a small group of ultra-picky Lutherans that will argue that a woman soloist is forbidden because she is now leading the service and that is verboten. Then if there was a statement from the LCMS president that women can't be soloists, they would then argue that said President was trying to be the Pope from the Purple Palace. (I was once of those ultra-picky Lutherans in the early to mid 1990s)

 

[JM]

Racism does seem to be at the core of their disagreements. Very shocking and sad. I have never experience any of this locally.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Racism does seem to be at the core of their disagreements. Very shocking and sad. I have never experience any of this locally.

Exactly. When you read news articles about "FBI watching "Traditional Catholics"" or something like that, it has nothing to do about theology. Traditionalists do tend to attract radical political elements. From the EO side, there is a guy by the name of Matthew Heimbach who has been excommunicated by the Antiochian church because of his racist beliefs. To promote his anti-Semitism, Heimbach publicly supported terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad writing that there should be "a unity between those who struggle against the Zionist State and International Jewry here in the West and those on the streets of Gaza, Syria, and Lebanon. We face the exact same enemy, one who doesn't care if they kill our women, children, and elderly. We are facing a truly Satanic enemy."[15]

 

[kdm1984]

The clergy I knew locally and online were conservative. LCMS has a lot of dissension on social media in general, though, which is a large part of why I left for WELS in 2020 (I also grew up in WELS originally before my parents left, and learned that there was in fact a WELS church in my area, so it was a better fit anyway). LCMS is also frankly more into politics in general; the last few times when I checked the online web site for the LCMS church I attended from 2018-2020, the pastor's newsletters were filled with stuff about church and state (with the pastor saying that two kingdoms theology and the American idea of separation of church and state are very different), anti-CRT sentiments, and the like. As with many other conservative denominations, there's a lot of focus on the "culture wars." WELS is firmly conservative theologically, but there's much less of politics both in the church and in the online communities (which also frankly tend to be smaller, so there's less room for large arguments). I think some of this is in how Schroeder and WELS approach the two kingdoms doctrine vs. how Harrison and most other LCMS folks do. Schroeder and other WELS view it similarly to separation of church and state whereas LCMS tends not to, hence the LCMS pastor writing a newsletter essentially insisting that LCMS become MORE politically active.

 

[JM]

The behavior online, complete lack of charity and religiosity, is very concerning.

 

[kdm1984]

The behavior online, complete lack of charity and religiosity, is very concerning.

Completely agree. Sadly I see it everywhere these days, even in Christian communities, and was just responding to another thread here where I mentioned how I seldom post online anymore because of how quarrelsome today's online discourse tends to be. I've certainly been guilty myself.

I remember how it wasn't always this way -- the Internet has always had some dark spots, but I remember being a member of a number of online communities in the late 1990s and 2000s when I was a teenager and college student, and it was much more possible to have civil discussions about a number of topics then.

It just isn't that way at all anymore, and honestly gets worse with every year, it seems.

I've found it best to mostly just stay at home, interact with the local church, and not get as involved with the online world.

 

[Halbhh]

Dear friends in Christ,

The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, its president, vice-presidents and all 35 district presidents, along with its ministerium and congregations, categorically reject the horrible and racist teachings of the so-called “alt-right” in toto (including white supremacy, Nazism, pro-slavery, anti-interracial marriage, women as property, fascism, death for homosexuals, even genocide).

The Synodical explanation of Luther’s Small Catechism teaches that the Fifth Commandment, “You shall not murder,” includes the prohibition of “hating, despising, or slandering other groups of people (prejudice, racism, and so forth).” The Scriptures agree: “Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 John 3:15)."

President Harrison denounces disturbing ideologies

LCMS leaders and congregations reject racist views and instead stand firm on the biblical belief that God loves every human in Jesus Christ.

reporter.lcms.org

Sigh. I'm not Lutheran so I'm just posting in fellowship but these two comments here very clearly tell anyone reading that the LCMS is liberal.

For at least 15 years now whenever political progressives disagree with political conservatives they just started calling the conservatives racist in an attempt to silence any discussion, and prevent anyone from actually listening to what the political conservatives are saying.

Now anyone who wants to keep our nation state model instead of being open to the globalism being pushed by corporate influences are suddenly "white supremacists" regardless of skin color, and racists.

This very thing occuring in this thread, an official LCMS response and attitude speaks volumes about how seriously bad this "racist white supremacists" lie is, and how deeply entrenched in this mentality the LCMS is today.

Thing is, what is normally called a liberal church usually centers around issues like homosexual marriage and other such issues that affect our society and which are pushed by the political liberalism of our day, which calls itself progressive.

At any rate, dismissal of everyone as being a racist white nationalist who has a disagreement over a matter is at best disingenuous, however it is 100% liberal.

While you aren't Lutheran, you could reasonably listen to Lutherans, right, and not start making disparaging comments against the LCMS in this forum.

This is the individual in question they removed from his post:
The "Reichskanzler" refers to the German Chancellor, during the period 1871-1945. Hitler was the last Reichskanzler.

Infamously, the Nazi regime executed the Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer for his claimed association with an attempt to remove Hitler (and save Germany from Hitler).

 

[Shane R]

I see this a lot on Twitter, the people in the pew are confessional and conservative, the institution and clergy are not. How liberal is the LCMS?

Any truth to those claims?

I tend to think this is backwards. Overall, I think the people in the pew are rather more liberal than the leadership of the denomination.

 

[JM]

I tend to think this is backwards. Overall, I think the people in the pew are rather more liberal than the leadership of the denomination.

I may become Orthodox in that case a ROCOR parish is an hour away...

 

[Halbhh]

I may become Orthodox in that case a ROCOR parish is an hour away...

But isn't the ROC is currently under Patriarch who by all appearances (by evidence of his pronouncements) is most likely an non believer, the one Patriarch Kirill, who for instance declared the murderous war against Ukraine that includes extensive murders of unarmed elderly and so on, as a 'holy war', all of this based on an extensive set of lies against Ukraine (for example, one lie paints Ukraine as being against traditional values, while in reality Ukraine is pretty highly Orthodox, at 72% !).

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

But isn't the ROC is currently under Patriarch who by all appearances (by evidence of his pronouncements) is most likely an non believer, the one Patriarch Kirill, who for instance declared the murderous war against Ukraine that includes extensive murders of unarmed elderly and so on, as a 'holy war', all of this based on an extensive set of lies against Ukraine (for example, one lie paints Ukraine as being against traditional values, while in reality Ukraine is pretty highly Orthodox, at 72% !).

ROCOR is semi-autonomous from the ROC. It is headed by the First Hierarch Nicholas in NYC.

@JM The question I have is what do you mean by "liberal"? Theologically? Politically? A mix of both?

 

[JM]

But isn't the ROC is currently under Patriarch who by all appearances (by evidence of his pronouncements) is most likely an non believer, the one Patriarch Kirill, who for instance declared the murderous war against Ukraine that includes extensive murders of unarmed elderly and so on, as a 'holy war', all of this based on an extensive set of lies against Ukraine (for example, one lie paints Ukraine as being against traditional values, while in reality Ukraine is pretty highly Orthodox, at 72% !).

I was being sarcastic but even according to Orthodox theology it wouldn't matter. He is still the (former KGB run) patriarch.