lcms and wels diffs?

Zecryphon said:

The original 12 disciples were men, on that we agree. But where we disagree is that women didn't travel with Jesus in His ministry and before you deny you ever said that, let me quote you here:

The women who had a supported Jesus in his ministry wasn't part of the traveling party group of "disciples" that we would consider the 12 (or the 72 that was sent out) that was with Jesus in his three year ministry.

The scriptures in Luke 10 make no mention of the gender of the 72 disciples that Jesus sends out. So I don't know how you can say with any authority that they were men only. Especially in light of the fact that there were women followers of Jesus at His crucifixion, and that Jesus first appeared to Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matthew 28:1-9), when He was resurrected from the dead.

There are also the "Daughters of Jerusalem" (Luke 23:37-41), who were local disciples, not women who had followed Jesus from Galilee. Then there were the Galilean women (Luke 23:55-24:11) Among the women mentioned in Luke 8:1-2. These faithful disciples cared for the body of Jesus like family members.

"Daughters of Jerusalem" (Luke 23:27-28)

Luke 23:27 And there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him.
Luke 23:28 But turning to them Jesus said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

"The Death of Jesus" Luke 23:44-49

Luke 23:44 It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour,
Luke 23:45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.
Luke 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.
Luke 23:47 Now when the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God, saying, "Certainly this man was innocent!"
Luke 23:48 And all the crowds that had assembled for this spectacle, when they saw what had taken place, returned home beating their breasts.
Luke 23:49 And all his acquaintances and the women who had followed him from Galilee stood at a distance watching these things.

"The Resurrection of Jesus" (Matthew 28:1-9) & (Luke 23:55-24:11)

Mat 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
Mat 28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.
Mat 28:3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow.
Mat 28:4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.
Mat 28:5 But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay.
Mat 28:7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you."
Mat 28:8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples.
Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Luk 23:54 It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning.
Luk 23:55 The women who had come with him from Galilee followed and saw the tomb and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
Luk 24:1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared.
Luk 24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
Luk 24:3 but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Luk 24:4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel.
Luk 24:5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise."
Luk 24:8 And they remembered his words,
Luk 24:9 and returning from the tomb they told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.
Luk 24:10 Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles,
Luk 24:11 but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them.

We can clearly see from scripture that women were a part of Jesus' ministry and a very active part of it. They didn't have just a supporting role. Also Acts 9:36 names Tabitha as a female disciple.

Act 9:36 Now there was in Joppa a disciple named Tabitha, which, translated, means Dorcas. She was full of good works and acts of charity.

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Thanks for the link
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If I were you, I would ask a WELS pastor who "the daughters of Jerusalem" were. If you find one that suggests the same implications you're grasping at please give us the name. Those in the synod who oversee the accuracy of it's pastors will want to know about it.

Act 9:36 .... Again if I were you, I would ask a WELS pastor the same thing and if you find one that suggests the same implications you're grasping at please give us the name.

There was no woman who held any position that compromised the headship and authority of a man in scripture. Their involvement were such that it would be in keeping with God's intent for the roles between men and women within the church, home and life in general. For it to be considered God pleasing in scripture, a women "disciple" or "follower of Jesus" needs to be held in the correct context.

If a WELS pastor is promoting what you're trying to say is what was occuring in scripture, he is incorrect and those who appointed to keep accuracy among it's called servants will want to know. Uniformity of doctrine among called workers is the bench mark of WELS\ELS.

I would refer to the link ... points 17-20

PreachersWife2004 said:

But you do have women teaching, from the lectern and maybe not the pulpit.

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Reading from the Bible in front of a group of people is not exercising the authority of the pastoral office.

And you have women exercising authority over men in other areas.

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Women may hold man-made offices in the church and carry out the duties assigned to them, so long as they do not include the functions of the pastoral office or accountability of the functions of the pastoral office. That is the only restriction is Scripture.

DaRev said:

Men are givine that role and responsibility. Women are not. They aren't given that authority to preach and administer the sacraments in the worship service.

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

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But women do hand out the elements in LCMS churches. I saw it in a big LCMS church in St. Louis 2 yrs ago.

twin.spin said:

Thanks for the link
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If I were you, I would ask a WELS pastor who "the daughters of Jerusalem" were. If you find one that suggests the same implications you're grasping at please give us the name. Those in the synod who oversee the accuracy of it's pastors will want to know about it.

Act 9:36 .... Again if I were you, I would ask a WELS pastor the same thing and if you find one that suggests the same implications you're grasping at please give us the name.

There was no woman who held any position that compromised the headship and authority of a man in scripture. Their involvement were such that it would be in keeping with God's intent for the roles between men and women within the church, home and life in general. For it to be considered God pleasing in scripture, a women "disciple" or "follower of Jesus" needs to be held in the correct context.

If a WELS pastor is promoting what you're trying to say is what was occuring in scripture, he is incorrect and those who appointed to keep accuracy among it's called servants will want to know. Uniformity of doctrine among called workers is the bench mark of WELS\ELS.

I would refer to the link ... points 17-20

17. The biblical principle of role relationship applies also to the gatherings of the church. All believers, men and women, will participate at gatherings of worship, prayer, Bible study, and service. The scriptural applications that a woman remain silent (1 Co 14:34) and that a woman should not teach a man (1 Ti 2:11,12) require that a woman refrain from participating in these gatherings in any way which involves authority over men.
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18. In church assemblies the headship principle means that only men will cast votes when such votes exercise authority over men. Only men will do work that involves authority over men (1 Co 11:3-10; 14:33-35; 1 Ti 2:11,12).
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19. All Christians, men and women, are to use their God-given gifts to serve each other (1 Pe 4:10). Women are encouraged to participate in offices and activities of the public ministry except where the work involves authority over men.
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If I were you, I would slow down and read what is actually written and address that. I am not suggesting that any of these women held authority over a man. How you ever arrived at that conclusion, I have absolutely no idea. It is not suggested anywhere in the post you have quoted. No WELS pastor has told me these things. These scriptures were posted to REFUTE your assertion that no woman was a part of the traveling ministry of Jesus. You should remember what you have asserted in the past when reading responses to such assertions.

I have no need to ask ANY WELS pastor anything as I am not the one making assertions that ARE NOT supported by Scripture and I am also not saying what you think I am. You asserted in a previous post, which is now deleted, that no women were a part of Jesus traveling ministry and I gave you many examples from Scripture that women were indeed a part of His ministry. I even gave you page numbers in the Lutheran Study Bible and supporting Scripture references so you could check it out for yourself. You obviously didn't care to do that.

If anybody needs to ask a WELS pastor anything, it is you as you're making assertions that are not supported by the Scriptures. The bottom line is this, you made an assertion not supported by the Scriptures and have been proven wrong. Can't wait to see what wild allegations will come from you regarding this post.

PreachersWife2004 said:

But you do have women teaching, from the lectern and maybe not the pulpit. And you have women exercising authority over men in other areas. Would you vote against your husband in a voters' assembly?

I know you're LCMS. I didn't realize you were only attending a WELS bible study.

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my husband is deceased - but if i WERE married, he would vote the way he wanted and i would vote the way i wanted - of course i would talk it over with him first, but i do have my own brain and i will use it.

Zecryphon said:

Forgive me if I'm misreading the situation you're in and your response here, but what I would do, is compare everything that has been said here against Scripture, pray about it and follow God's leading and counsel on this one, and not rely on one paragraph by one man to be the final authority on this matter.

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(answered below)

Zecryphon said:

Does your LCMS church have a Bible study now? If so, I would attend that one if I were you. At a WELS Bible study you're going to receive teachings that will not line up with what your LCMS church teaches as our two churches are not in fellowship. I remember an elder from my former LCMS church inviting me to weekly Bible study and I turned him down because the two churches are not in fellowship.

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yes, we have a weekly bible study now, which i do attend - however, i go to the other bible study because my best friend and her dad go to that study, the pastor is VERY good, very intelligent, and while i don't agree on the whole "women v. men" issue, i basically agree with nearly everything else he teaches, and because the people at this particular study are so unbelievably nice, i've grown to really care about them.

QuiltAngel said:

Hey guys, I am sure that alexnbethmom has already studied the scripture and is convinced that the LCMS has it right as she said in an earlier post. WELS members on here are not going to convince the LCMS members they are wrong and LCMS members are not going to convince the WELS members they are wrong.

We are each where we are because we are convinced the Synod where we are is correct in their teachings. Some of the posts on here come across as bullying to me. I am sure that is not how they are meant, but after 24 pages of discussion, that is how some of them come across.

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to answer this and zec's post above: yes, i have studied and prayed about this issue like you wouldn't believe - to the point where it has give me headaches and heartburn - i have discussed it with my pastor, i have discussed it with the WELS pastor, this is not something i have taken lightly - i am not basing my decision on just that one paragraph Rev wrote, but that one paragraph basically put it all into one neat package to go along with everything i have studied, prayed about and discussed, all of which have led me to the realization that i am, indeed, in the synod i should be in.

and yes, some of these posts are coming across as bullying - i thought i was the only one thinking it, thinking that my nose was out of joint or whatever, but i guess i'm not alone....

seajoy said:

But women do hand out the elements in LCMS churches. I saw it in a big LCMS church in St. Louis 2 yrs ago.

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if you truly saw women handing out communion in an LCMS church, i'm thinking that church is WAYYYY off base - i have only been LCMS for 3 years, but in that time i have attended 3 different LCMS churches (my own, plus visiting 2 others) and never did or would a woman hand out communion, period.

alexnbethmom said:

if you truly saw women handing out communion in an LCMS church

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Why did you say "if"?

seajoy said:

Why did you say "if"?

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sorry - i didn't mean "if" as in you don't really know what you saw, it was just a figure of speech - didn't mean to offend!

I'm SO glad I'm WELS.

alexnbethmom said:

sorry - i didn't mean "if" as in you don't really know what you saw, it was just a figure of speech - didn't mean to offend!

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ok, cool

PreachersWife2004 said:

I'm SO glad I'm WELS.

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Me too!

and just to throw it out there, i'm so glad i'm LCMS!!

Me... LCMS

DaRev said:

I've mentioned this at least three times already. I'll make one last attempt, then I'm finished with it. 1 Timothy 2 talks about the role of women in the worship service. I assume you read the NIV Bible. Open yours and look at the beginning of 1 Timothy 2. What does it say? Mine says "Instructions on Worship". It then goes on to talk about women in the worship service. Paul says that women are not to "teach or have authority over a man" in the worship service. The context is about the worship service. Worship service. The words "teach" and "authority" are what tie this section to the next where Paul speaks of the eligibility for holding the authoritative teaching office. Who "teaches" in the worship service? Who has the authority given by Christ to teach, preach, and administer the sacraments in the worship service? Men are givine that role and responsibility. Women are not. They aren't given that authority to preach and administer the sacraments in the worship service.

I don't know how to make it any clearer.



The words in the text are clear as crystal. See above.



There's no doubt you believe that, but I firmly believe you're wrong. Plain and simple.
As I said before, if the WELS wishes to apply this across the board to all positions in the congregation, including the man-made offices, that's their perogative. But don't say that we're wrong because we apply it as written.

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I can't believe that you are using a heading written in your bible as a guide. You know very well that those headings are not part of the devinely inspired word of God. They are simply added by a mere uninspired human. My Pastor has told me to pay no attention to them and just read the scripture. While its true they may have some truth in them they are still not Gpd's word.

This is the only thing we need to look at:
1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
1Ti 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

As you can well see this scripture goes beyond church and there is no way you can deny that.

DaRev said:

Reading from the Bible in front of a group of people is not exercising the authority of the pastoral office.



Women may hold man-made offices in the church and carry out the duties assigned to them, so long as they do not include the functions of the pastoral office or accountability of the functions of the pastoral office. That is the only restriction is Scripture.

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But women reading from the bible in church is teaching and the scripture above clearly forbids that.

Jim47 said:

I can't believe that you are using a heading written in your bible as a guide. You know very well that those headings are not part of the devinely inspired word of God. They are simply added by a mere uninspired human. My Pastor has told me to pay no attention to them and just read the scripture. While its true they may have some truth in them they are still not Gpd's word.

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The funny thing is, while he was initially the one who pointed out that chapters and verses were added later, I was the one who pointed out that chapter three had the headline of deacons and elders while chapter 2 talked about the worship service.

This is the only thing we need to look at:
1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
1Ti 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

As you can well see this scripture goes beyond church and there is no way you can deny that.

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Not to mention that more books than just Timothy mention this whole authority bit.

But women reading from the bible in church is teaching and the scripture above clearly forbids that.

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BINGO! Apparently the LCMS believes women only actually teach from the pulpit. Everywhere else is just peachy keen.

Jim47 said:

I can't believe that you are using a heading written in your bible as a guide. You know very well that those headings are not part of the devinely inspired word of God. They are simply added by a mere uninspired human. My Pastor has told me to pay no attention to them and just read the scripture. While its true they may have some truth in them they are still not Gpd's word.

This is the only thing we need to look at:
1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
1Ti 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

As you can well see this scripture goes beyond church and there is no way you can deny that.




But women reading from the bible in church is teaching and the scripture above clearly forbids that.

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Equality of being does not rule out spiritual authority and the role of submission between man and woman. God calls upon both men and women to fulfill roles and responsibilities designed specially for them in certain situations. God has designed all of human life to revolve around relationships. Everyone is involved in a relationship, and within those relationships are differing roles. When we come to this verse, 1 Timothy 2:11, “Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. I permit not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

If I take Word of God faithfully, I just stop and figure out what it means “I permit not a woman to teach or take authority over a man.” Should I submit to God or the flesh?

In my view, I never attend a Church that has an ordained female ministers. I believed what Paul is saying in Timothy is relating to ordaining women as pastors.

Is the whole of our thinking governed by Scripture, or do we come with our reason and pick and choose out of Scripture? I am looking at the whole Bible.

I do accept women teachers in a way that fits with their gifts within the Church.

I don't think God think we all have any "rights" but rather "privileges". Humility is tricky when we are trying to obey God's commandment. In the Bible, women have made strong impact and throughout Christian history, I came to respect many great Christian women and their faith. They have taught me more than any ordained pastors have taught me over the years. God can use everyone to teach another a lesson or two. I have no problem with women leading small groups, bible studies or even Sunday schools. Many will have this gift who are not ordained are evangelists, missionaries, deacon, Sunday school teachers and etc. Another form of teaching is listed in Romans 12:8 "exhortation" follows immediately after teaching. The learned disciples are to encourage others to follow them as they follow Christ through their spiritual "wisdom" and "knowledge." Wisdom and knowledge are gifts particularly associated with minor role of teaching.

This is how I look at it. I submit to my wife and my wife submits to me. In fact, we mutually agree about everything. Women are very important in all local churches. Men need to understand that biblically that godly woman is a woman of great worth, trustworthy, hardworking, diligent, caring, thoughtful, business wise, disciplined, merciful, creative, lovely and most of all she loves God. Her attitude and actions produce a legacy that is praiseworthy (See Proverbs 31:10-31) and demonstrates a joyful freedom. Men should take anything a woman say into any consideration. By using an example from First Peter 3:7, Peter actually suggests that God designed women to be under the protection of a man, benefiting from his strength. And serving women by lending them that strength is one of the main ways we show them a Christlike, sacrificial love.

seajoy said:

But women do hand out the elements in LCMS churches. I saw it in a big LCMS church in St. Louis 2 yrs ago.

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Which is one of the things that needs to be addressed. The official LCMS position is that women are NOT to distribute the elements of the Lord's Supper because that is part of the administration of the sacrament. It's a problem within that (and several other) congregation(s) and it's contrary to both Scripture and LCMS teaching and practice.

DaRev said:

Which is one of the things that needs to be addressed. The official LCMS position is that women are NOT to distribute the elements of the Lord's Supper because that is part of the administration of the sacrament. It's a problem within that (and several other) congregation(s) and it's contrary to both Scripture and LCMS teaching and practice.

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I guess since I'm WELS, I didn't report it anywhere. But it did bother me.

Jim47 said:

I can't believe that you are using a heading written in your bible as a guide. You know very well that those headings are not part of the devinely inspired word of God. They are simply added by a mere uninspired human. My Pastor has told me to pay no attention to them and just read the scripture. While its true they may have some truth in them they are still not Gpd's word.

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You are correct that they are not part of the text. They are headings that describe the context of what follows. There is no denying, by anyone who knows how to read, that the context of 1 Timothy 2 concerns the worship service.

This is the only thing we need to look at:
1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
1Ti 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

As you can well see this scripture goes beyond church and there is no way you can deny that.

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The context of the chapter concerns the worship service. There is no way you can deny that.

But women reading from the bible in church is teaching and the scripture above clearly forbids that.

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How is simply reading the Bible in front of people related to exercising authority in the teaching office? It isn't. The one who reads is not teaching. They are reading.

I've done my duty to God, so thats all I have to say.

What if a man is, ya know, wrong?