I have no doubt this is a parable, but would Jesus use an illustration straight out of paganism to show what happened to Lazarus and the Rich Man after they died? Maby so, but I think a story based on reality would bring the point across better. How would it seem if He used a story about reincarnation to illustrate his point, say allowing Lazarus to come back as a king and the rich man as a mule?
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Lazarus and the Rich Man
- Thread starter Smoky
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The Fundamentalist
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Barring 'experiences', temporarily, why do you from a Scriptural [KJB] standpoint exclude it from being parable?
What is the primary reason, and latter reasons?
Let us examine them, closely.
'Experiences' are to be tested by Scripture, not the Scripture by 'experiences'. Satan himself transforms himself into an angel [messenger] of light, and can look like what you think Jesus looked like.
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The Fundamentalist
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Excellent. Later, I will share the meaning, from Scripture itself if time/circumstances permits...
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All parables are of truth. God created the seen and unseen, truth.
A little known fact(narrow), that truth is of God, God is truth. All else is lies. God doesn't lie.
A little known fact(narrow), that truth is of God, God is truth. All else is lies. God doesn't lie.
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The Fundamentalist
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Brother, why, from Scripture [KJB] do you believe it is not a parable [a positive claim you have stated]? With what Scriptural evidence do you stand upon for the claim? An 'experience' is not foundation, since the Scriptures, according to Scripture, are to be the foundation [Isaiah 8:20, 28:10; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 14:32, etc] and according to Scripture all 'spirits' are to be tested by it [1 John 4:1] and thus all 'experiences' and manifestations, etc. Even Miracles are no guarantee, for the devils do them also [Revelation 16:14, etc].
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You don't see that as a problem brother? Why would you think the message was from God if it can't be backed by His Word? If you received another 'revelation' that said it was ok to steal from the rich to give to the poor... would you accept that as divine even though it contradicts scripture?
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OldStudent
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Please don't take what follows loudly or personally. The parable is rarely discussed for what it is really about.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is one of the more grossly misunderstood and abused expressions of Jesus. It is not about the state of the dead. It is not about what happened to the rich man and Lazarus. It IS about people set in their ways about refusing to hear/receive T/truth even in the face of corrective evidence.
The context of the passage starts in Luke 15. Look at the audience. Who was listening? Who was He addressing? What issues was He addressing? The punch line of this parable is in verses 30 and 31 (Luke 16) If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. He continues developing the idea in the next chapter. One could almost read His mind: "I don't know why I bother. They won't get it anyway..."
In fact, if you go to John 16 you read of a man named Lazarus who WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD. What was the reaction? Some loved it. Some sought to kill both Jesus AND Lazarus. Jesus knew what was coming and set the table.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is one of the more grossly misunderstood and abused expressions of Jesus. It is not about the state of the dead. It is not about what happened to the rich man and Lazarus. It IS about people set in their ways about refusing to hear/receive T/truth even in the face of corrective evidence.
The context of the passage starts in Luke 15. Look at the audience. Who was listening? Who was He addressing? What issues was He addressing? The punch line of this parable is in verses 30 and 31 (Luke 16) If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. He continues developing the idea in the next chapter. One could almost read His mind: "I don't know why I bother. They won't get it anyway..."
In fact, if you go to John 16 you read of a man named Lazarus who WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD. What was the reaction? Some loved it. Some sought to kill both Jesus AND Lazarus. Jesus knew what was coming and set the table.
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johnpaul7779
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If a wise man has an argument with a foolish man, the fool only rages or laughs, and there is no rest. Proverbs 29:9
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is found in Luke 16. Why did Jesus make a point to give the name of Lazarus if it was just a parable?
Jesus told a parable about the rich fool in Luke 12. Why does it say in Luke 12, in contrast, "And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully ..." (Luke 12:16)
In contrast, the story about the rich man and Lazarus is not prefaced with it being a parable. Did Jesus ever give proper names to people described through his parables? If not, why only Lazarus?
And if it's Jesus's teaching, whether parable or not, how can you discount the lesson either way?
Do not have anything to do with foolish and stupid discussions, because you know they breed arguments.
2 Timothy 2:23
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is found in Luke 16. Why did Jesus make a point to give the name of Lazarus if it was just a parable?
Jesus told a parable about the rich fool in Luke 12. Why does it say in Luke 12, in contrast, "And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully ..." (Luke 12:16)
In contrast, the story about the rich man and Lazarus is not prefaced with it being a parable. Did Jesus ever give proper names to people described through his parables? If not, why only Lazarus?
And if it's Jesus's teaching, whether parable or not, how can you discount the lesson either way?
Do not have anything to do with foolish and stupid discussions, because you know they breed arguments.
2 Timothy 2:23
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In Hell a Final Word, written by Edward William Fudge (an expert on the subject of hell), you will find plenty of Scriptural evidence showing that the wicked will not be tortured in flames for all eternity. In other words, hell is not what you think it is, and Edward's book will show you thatif you are willing to listen.
Here's the link to the book: Hell a Final Word
You can also watch a movie about this author's experience dealing with this subject.
Hell and Mr. Fudge
If you examine these things and see from Scripture that hell isn't what you think is, then you should also see that your understanding of the story of the Rich man and Lazarus is wrong.
Moreover, you should then question the validity of the experience you had had which you believe was an encounter with Jesus.
If you want to know the truth, then get Hell a Final Word. In this book you will receive all the Scripture references needed to reveal the truth about Hell.
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Yes, but it has never contradicted what is true according to the Scriptures. And if it can be backed up by Scripture, then it's not an opinion, but absolute truth.
My advice to you is to search these things out to see if what you have experienced is really from God. Follow the example of the Bereans (Acts 17:10-11). Don't trust in your feelings or lean on your own understanding, but search the Scriptures. I have already linked you to a resource put together by someone who put a lot of time and effort into studying this subject. I hope I didn't waste my time sharing that information with you. Please get the book I recommended by Mr. Fudge.
That's the best advice I can give you.
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In answer to Smoky's original query as to whether Jesus would use an illustration straight out of paganism? I'd say in this instance absolutely. And as I think Jesus never did anything without a reason or purpose, this instance was very poignant because He was not speaking or addressing the "masses", but a very select group. LK.16:14 " now the Pharisees who were lovers of money, also heard all these things and THEY DERIDED HIM".(turned up their noses)
So I believe what the Old Student posted, it is misunderstood and mis-interpreted. I personally believe it to be a tongue lashing by Jesus, partially (IMO) because it only appears in Luke because he wasn't a Hebrew, but a Greek Physican, and the other Disciples being Jewish didn't feel comfortable because the Pharisee's still loomed large religiously. Like I said, just my opinion.
Some have argued that its not a parable because it mentions a proper name, nonsense, It doesn't give a name to the rich man, but (LOL) I'll bet the Pharisees knew who he represented. And, as names in Biblical times had meaning, the name He chose added more coals to the fire. The Greek Lazarus means "helpless, destitute of help", its a contraction of the Jewish El'Azar meaning God has helped.
Now the reasoning about how the parable came about can be found at LK.16:15 "and He said to them, (Pharisees) you are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts, for what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God".
Which is also (IMO) why I believe He colored his illustrative parable with Greek mythology because the Pharisees thought everything not Jewish was forbidden and they "only" were pure, but Jesus knew they completely understood every word He spoke.
And just for those that don't believe its a parable then they must not believe the Bible or they missed a couple passages-- MATT.13:34-35 "All thes things Jesus said to the multitude in parables and without a parable He did not speak to them. That all might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Prophet saying:"I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world". And later in JN.16:29-30 "His Disciples said to Him, " see, NOW you are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech, now we are sure that You know all things and have no need that anyone should question you".
And so, like the Old Student referenced the end is the moral where He tells them He gave them the Law and the Prophets and they killed them, so what more can He do, they are lost cause they won't listen.
So I believe what the Old Student posted, it is misunderstood and mis-interpreted. I personally believe it to be a tongue lashing by Jesus, partially (IMO) because it only appears in Luke because he wasn't a Hebrew, but a Greek Physican, and the other Disciples being Jewish didn't feel comfortable because the Pharisee's still loomed large religiously. Like I said, just my opinion.
Some have argued that its not a parable because it mentions a proper name, nonsense, It doesn't give a name to the rich man, but (LOL) I'll bet the Pharisees knew who he represented. And, as names in Biblical times had meaning, the name He chose added more coals to the fire. The Greek Lazarus means "helpless, destitute of help", its a contraction of the Jewish El'Azar meaning God has helped.
Now the reasoning about how the parable came about can be found at LK.16:15 "and He said to them, (Pharisees) you are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts, for what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God".
Which is also (IMO) why I believe He colored his illustrative parable with Greek mythology because the Pharisees thought everything not Jewish was forbidden and they "only" were pure, but Jesus knew they completely understood every word He spoke.
And just for those that don't believe its a parable then they must not believe the Bible or they missed a couple passages-- MATT.13:34-35 "All thes things Jesus said to the multitude in parables and without a parable He did not speak to them. That all might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Prophet saying:"I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world". And later in JN.16:29-30 "His Disciples said to Him, " see, NOW you are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech, now we are sure that You know all things and have no need that anyone should question you".
And so, like the Old Student referenced the end is the moral where He tells them He gave them the Law and the Prophets and they killed them, so what more can He do, they are lost cause they won't listen.
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