Lay Servant/Speaker/Leader

[GraceSeeker]

You'll note in the above that among the differences that sets baptism and holy communion apart as sacraments from other means of grace is not just that these were ordered by Christ, but that the doing of them involves some sort of (for lack of a better term) "sign-act". That is, there is the water used in baptism as an outward physical sign of what God is himself doing on a spiritual level, and likewise in holy communion there is the receiving of the communion elements which, while not literally transformed in any way, are a sign of the very real presence of Christ in the midst of the eucharist. So there is both a physical and spiritual aspect to both baptism and holy communion which make them sacred moments or sacraments.

Could an argument be made for other sacraments? Yes. For instance, the washing of feet is a sacred moment involving both a physical and spiritual aspect to it and I would affirm the Christ is truly present so that it is a grace-filled moment, a means of grace. But, we don't find Christ actually ordering us to perpetuate this practice. Jesus does order us to forgive as we have been forgiven, but this act does not have tied to it any ordained physical symbol or "sign-act". So, we are left with only the above two that have all of those elements combined. Thus they remain our only sacraments, though one might have many other sacred moments that are grace-filled and serve as means for conveying grace either to you or others.

 

[beforHim]

Thx for all the info, I'll go through it and come back with any questions. This is helping me alot

 

[RomansFiveEight]

You've gotten plenty of great info from some good sources. So I won't pile on. Only offer encouragement as you seek the ways God might use you in the future, and in the ministry of your church.

Pray about issues like Infant Baptism. Honestly ask yourself who is telling you these theologies are troublesome. Is it more of an innate feeling, something you grew up with, a personal bias? Or is it a theological you can genuinely articulate and feel the spirit leading you towards. Only you can answer that. But it is important to reiterate that theologies like that in the UMC are the crux of who we are. So above all else, we want to help you understand what makes a United Methodist, AND understand what makes you, you. I just ask and pray that you open your heart and mind to these Wesleyan understandings.

 

[beforHim]

Thx for all the encouragement guys.

After reading more on all this, seems I can affirm communion when it sounds more like a sign-act, but then when it sounds as if it gives grace in some sorta special way unlike anything else I'm weary. On one hand all things are means of grace, on the other hand this is THE means of grace (and Baptism). On the one hand it's not like eating some bread will suddenly give you grace whether taken worthily or not, on the other hand it's a definite channel of grace and could even be (as Wesley said somewhere) salvific for unbelievers. I mean, it seems like we want to keep it as special as possible without going overboard- in order to keep the specialness we must go over board, but then we make sure we're not going overboard by explaining stuff about it, but then in explaining it we're quick to emphasize it's specialness, but then in explaining the specialness we're want to not go overboard, but then we emphasize the specialness...round and round it goes.

I have read the links for both baptism and communion that GraceSeeker gave, and yeah, this above is kinda what I get to. maybe it's supposed to be in tension?

 

[GraceSeeker]

I have read the links for both baptism and communion that GraceSeeker gave, and yeah, this above is kinda what I get to. maybe it's supposed to be in tension?

Maybe you're suppose to breathe? After all it is grace we are talking about. If grace gets you stressed out, one wonders if we're really experiencing grace.

Also, this is ultimately all the work of the Spirit. And whether we are speaking of the Spirit in Greek "pnuemos" or Hebrew "ruach", the words get translated "breath" just as much as they do "spirit". So, stop, breathe, fill yourself with the breath of God and you'll have no problem experiencing his grace.

 

[beforHim]

Maybe you're suppose to breathe?

Lol, but yeah I do tend to get worked up about this stuff. But I am being truthful and genuine when I say I'm appreciative of all the info you guys have given me.