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Lawsuit?

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ChiRho

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If I remember correctly, I do believe atleast one frequent reader of this congregational forum, TCCL, is involved in the legal field (yes, Flip, I mean you). Well, I have a question, but first allow me to paint an accurate picture of the situation:

My girlfriend currently works for the national breakfast chain, IHOP. Last night, a fellow server celebrated her 45th birthday at a small bar named Rumrunners. Relunctantly, I escorted Alisha (isn't really my type of bar, nor people). We were there for approximately two hours when things got interesting. Another server, a homosexual named Brian, decided to leave the seat he had been occupying for most of the evening and stroll over to our end of the table. Because I was making an honest attempt to engage in conversation with Alisha's co-workers, I was unaware of Brian's presence behind me. Well, he made his whereabouts immediately known, as he ran his hand across my back and shoulders. Without a moment's of hesitation he was instructed never to touch me again. Ever. He threw back his head and giggled like a school girl. He sat down next to me and began talking to the girl on the other side of him. Oh, by the way, he has consumed atleast five extra large martini's (Grey Goose ofcourse...he kept announcing it to the table). Alisha turns to look at some pictures and temporarily has her back to me. As she strains to get a better look, the top of her underwear are exposed. This apparently caught Brian's eye and he decided to violate her space. As she leaned forward (with her back to us), I hear him say, "Watch this," to his female friend and I notice his hand coming across me from the corner of my eye. I grab his arm midflight and turn to him. I calmly say, "you may not touch my girlfriend's posterior."

He explodes.

"Alisha is my friend, I can do what I want!" he shrills.

I return calmly, "if you do, I will kick your ***."

By now the entire table has turned their attention to the situation. The women run to Brian's rescue (11 women, four men (two gay)). He and his partner (who divorced his wife and abandon three kids to be with Brian) grabbed their coats from the back of the chair. I remained sitting watching Brian. He came back in my direction and half slurred that he was "gonna kick my ***." I stood up and they ran out the door.

All of the women began to scream various things all along the same lines (edited, but you get the idea):

"Insecure jerk!"

"Over-protective anal orifice!"

etc, etc, etc.

All placed fault on me and according to their logic, Brian did nothing wrong. None denied that he tried to touch her backside, but all declared it his right to do so...because he is gay and clearly doesn't mean anything by it. I disagree.

I tried to rationalize with the frenzied female herd, explaining that they may choose to set their moral guidelines however limiting they choose, but they do not get to choose the moral guidelines of Alisha and I. This wasn't acceptable to them and they declared that Alisha should dump me immediately...I couldn't help but laugh at this! As I went to pay our tab, the women told Alisha that Brian will probably sue me. I scoffed at this at first, but on second thought, knowing the feminized American justice system, I had better atleast ask. So, is this world so backwards and so upside-down that suit could be filed against me and actually won?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho
 

KEPLER

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Sue you for what? Scaring him? Making him sully his Donna Karan™ silk-knit boxer-briefs?

He sounds like blow-hard; I wouldn't worry about it. (But then again, I'm not a lawyer! ;))

As for your girlfriend, how did she react? If she doesn't want her skivvies being toyed with by anyone other than herself, then is it safe to assume she appreciated you protecting her space?

Or is she siding with the women (er, excuse me, womyn)? If so, how would she react if some hot-looking woman (who also happened to be a lesbian) was diddling around with your BVDs?

I guess it also depends on how close you are...if the same situation happened with my wife and I, I'd have reacted the same way you did, but she's my wife: her body belongs to me (and mine to her) and I have not only the right but the obligation to protect her. So how close are you? Engaged? Talking about getting married? Just dating?

K
 
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ChiRho

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KEPLER said:
Sue you for what? Scaring him? Making him sully his Donna Karan™ silk-knit boxer-briefs?

He sounds like blow-hard; I wouldn't worry about it. (But then again, I'm not a lawyer! ;))

As for your girlfriend, how did she react? If she doesn't want her skivvies being toyed with by anyone other than herself, then is it safe to assume she appreciated you protecting her space?

Or is she siding with the women (er, excuse me, womyn)? If so, how would she react if some hot-looking woman (who also happened to be a lesbian) was diddling around with your BVDs?

I guess it also depends on how close you are...if the same situation happened with my wife and I, I'd have reacted the same way you did, but she's my wife: her body belongs to me (and mine to her) and I have not only the right but the obligation to protect her. So how close are you? Engaged? Talking about getting married? Just dating?

K


She sided with me...to much dismay of the womyn (Ha!). We are really close. She will raise my children. And I fully trust her to do so. No date has been set, but early next year.

Are there grounds for a countersuit?
 
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KEPLER

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ChiRho said:
She sided with me...to much dismay of the womyn (Ha!). We are really close. She will raise my children. And I fully trust her to do so. No date has been set, but early next year.

Are there grounds for a countersuit?

I wouldn't think there are grounds either way. "Verbal assault" doesn't usually go anywhere in civil cases, not even in California. And it doesn't sound as if anything more than that happened.

But (again!) what do I know?

K
 
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SPALATIN

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ChiRho said:
She sided with me...to much dismay of the womyn (Ha!). We are really close. She will raise my children. And I fully trust her to do so. No date has been set, but early next year.

Are there grounds for a countersuit?

Good question. Sounds like everyone there was siding with Brian and the only witness you have is Alisha that would testify on your behalf. He was evidently drunk and knew he couldn't beat you in a fight. He was embarrassed because he was caught doing something he shouldn't ought to have done.

Also just because he is gay does not give him license to touch anyone who does not want to be touched. He would lose in a court of law and besides no assault was committed, only threats. I would do the same for my wife if I were in the situation.
 
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Qoheleth

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ChiRho,

Actually he could file a report (criminal) with the PD and it would be classified as a Simple Assault, possibly a 93 day Assault and Battery due to Physical contact.

No prosecutor would touch it and it would be dismissed with a warning. Ive dealt with this before. The key is, you had physical, unwelcomed intentional contact then threatened him. ("if you do, I will kick your ***.") In the end that qualifies most assuredly, as a Simple Assault. But once the elements of the offense are discovered, the whole thing would be dismissed.

Q
 
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KEPLER

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Qoheleth said:
ChiRho,

Actually he could file a report (criminal) with the PD and it would be classified as a Simple Assault possibly a 93 day Assault and Battery due to Physical contact.

No prosecutor would touch it and it would be dismissed with a warning. Ive dealt with this before. The key is, you had physical unwelcomed intentional contact then threatened him ("if you do, I will kick your ***.") in the end and that qualifies must assuredly, at least as a Simple Assault. But once the elements of the offense are discovered, the whole thing would be dismissed.

Q
Q,

Could ChiRho's girlfriend file a similar complaint? (Even though he apparently was prevented from making contact?) And what about his verbal threats to ChiRho?

K
 
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Qoheleth

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Q,

Could ChiRho's girlfriend file a similar complaint? (Even though he apparently was prevented from making contact?) And what about his verbal threats to ChiRho?
K

Sure, but without verbal (threatening language) or actual contact, it wouldnt see a courtroom.

As far as the Verbal assault directed towards ChiRho, well, ChiRho can file a complaint but this to would not make it to the bench. This type of thing gets dicey at best and a judge (if this really ruffles their feathers) might slap both with Simple Assault. This is why at pre-trial, it would be dismissed.

Q
 
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Flipper

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Not a lawyer and I work mostly in toxic torts. In other words, if you were, as an example, renting an apartment that found mold and you got sick because you got said mold, I would be your gal to answer procedural questions. Everything else, my knowledge is sketchy at best.

Still, I'll give this a shot on the civil end. To win a lawsuit, one has to prove they were damaged, either physically, mentally, or financially, in such a way that a dollar amount can be placed on the damage. You did not injure Brian in such a way that he had to go to the hospital or doctor. You did not do damage to his property. He was extremely drunk and most of the group was on his side, so I don't see that you humiliated him to the extent that he needs mental counselling. Therefore, I doubt he could do anything. One can claim the damage, but unless they sought and receive actual treatment, or have a statment to prove financial or property loss, damage can't be proven.

You also have to take into consideration that the cost of litigating a case can be quite high, so whatever lawyer he hires would have to look at the amount of his damage verses the cost of litigating the case.

If he did actually sue you, you could maybe talk to a lawyer about countering with malicious prosecution because you would then be damaged in that you have to expend legal costs to defend the frivilous lawsuit - though very seldom have I seen successful malicious prosecution suits - they are very hard to prove.

I do share in your frustration. I was recently served in a lawsuit regarding a car accident that happened over 4 years ago. Long story short. There was another accident down the road, and the person injured in that accident is trying to say that the accident I was in contributed to his. The police report determined the accident I was in was not my fault, and someone else's insurance paid for the damage to my car. However, I'm still a defendant, and my insurance company had to hire a lawyer to defend me, who has told me that it's going to be fought. Because I'm not paying for the lawyer (and hopefully my insurance will not go up from this), I can't turn around and sue this bozo for malicious prosecution because I'm not losing anything in it, except a bit of frustration. My insurance company might be able to do something like that because they are expending costs, but not me.

I hope this makes sense. Sounds like the guy - and a bunch of others - drank too much and made a$$es of themselves. Hopefully it will all blow over.
 
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IowaLutheran

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Flipper said:
IowaLutheran - I see you here. Am I close?

Yes you are!

(I've been a practicing lawyer about 10 1/2 years in civil and criminal law).

The one thing I would correct that has been said here is that to prove assault, there does not have to be contact. The tort/crime of assault is the threat to commit offensive bodily contact combined with the apparent ability to commit that act. If the offensive bodily contact is actually committed, then you have the tort/crime of battery.
 
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BigNorsk

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I believe Q is pretty well right on on the criminal aspects of the incident. Nothing that happened will ever see the light of day in criminal court.

As for civil, in order to prevail, one needs to show damages and those damages need to be reduced to financial equivalent. Without medical care being required, it is very difficult to show damages. If he went to an emergency room for care, especially if he could show that the imprint of your hand was in his arm, say as a black and blue mark. Then it would become more likely that he could collect damages.

The rule is basically that anyone can sue anyone else for anything at anytime. Prevailing is a whole other matter, and suing when it clearly isn't warranted can bring the wrath of the court upon the filer.

I don't see the arguement that it is "okay" for a homosexual man to grab butt when it wouldn't be okay for a heterosexual. It is perfectly possible for a heterosexual to be funning and not mean things in a sexual way. But the man was guilty of inappropriately touching you, and he intended to inappropriately touch your girlfriend and his sexual orientation really doesn't figure into it.

We socially kind of give people a bit of a pass until they should realize that their touching isn't wanted. But I don't think this guy was innocent in his touching, from the way he touched you and the fact that he was going over you to get at her, I think he was trying to provoke you. He probably didn't count on your reaction.

I can understand a bit where the women are coming from, I'm sure that they could tell you about how they are approached all the time by men and mostly in advances that they do not desire. So many women kind of find homosexual men to be a bit relaxing to be around compared to the barrage they often find themselves under. But, these women are going a bit far.

The only shakey ground I see you on is that you so quickly threatened physical harm to him. I don't really see that you needed to throw that out as a possibility when you did. I think it would maybe have defused the situation a bit better to turn to Alisha and asked, "Do you want him to grab your butt?" She would have given an answer which would be boiled down to "No." Then you could say to him, "See, now you know, she doesn't want you grabbing her." That would leave him out on limb from which he could either crawl away or he could saw it off. The way you did it kind of made it you against him, where the other way would have clearly shown others it was you and Alisha against his unwanted touching.

Don't lie awake at night worrying about the incident.

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LutherNut

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What about the unwanted sexual advancements made by the gay guy? Isn't there a cause for some sort of counter of sexual harassment/assualt or something? Or are people allowed to place their hands all over you and attempt to do the same to your girlfirend, but you are not allowed to defend yourself or her?


Jay:confused:
 
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BigNorsk

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The fact that the guy is gay tends to take the unwanted touching from the area of sexual advances. It is possible that he would create what is called a hostile work environment. Foul language, pornography, coarse jokes, unwanted touching and so on have been found to create such an environment. The fellow wouldn't tend to be liable unless he is in a position of authority over her. Basically there would need to be a situation the employer was aware of and did nothing or should have been aware of if exercising proper supervision.

In the end, the major punishment for the guy wouldn't come down on him, but the employer. I hope things don't go down that road.

Hopefully everyone just kind of blames it on too much liquor and feels a bit foolish and it doesn't keep getting bigger. If he continues touching inappropriately or such at work, and doesn't stop when asked to, then the employer should be notified.

Probably a matter of where one lives, here, I wish the heterosexuals were anywhere near as well behaved as the homosexuals. Matter of fact, I've never been hasseled by a homosexual, something I wish I could say for straight white guys.

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