Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
There was no meld.. just persecution when the Roman one got into power.That is not what I was taught. I was taught that ther were acctually two segregated congregations in Rome. Peter was involved with the Jewish one (and its rebellion in Rome is recorded in history). The other, Gentile congregation is the one which Paul wrote to. The congregations did not meld together until later in history.
That is not what I was taught. I was taught that ther were acctually two segregated congregations in Rome. Peter was involved with the Jewish one (and its rebellion in Rome is recorded in history). The other, Gentile congregation is the one which Paul wrote to. The congregations did not meld together until later in history.
Where does this come from? I would like to read or hear it.That is not what I was taught. I was taught that ther were acctually two segregated congregations in Rome. Peter was involved with the Jewish one (and its rebellion in Rome is recorded in history). The other, Gentile congregation is the one which Paul wrote to. The congregations did not meld together until later in history.
The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by YHWH to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.
Acts 15:20-21 - "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
start with lions, fires, ... read the "book of martyrs."Christians were persecuted, so how do you say this?
If you want to live by the man made rules of the Jews, then this may be true. However, those in Messiah Yeshua are to live by his rules and his Father YHWH's rules. Neither of them made such a ridiculous rule.Concerning the Sabbath it is a violation for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath as does a Jew. only a full convert is allowed, which would make one a Jew in every respect. Jewish Sanhedrin 58b
Concerning the Lord and His opinion about this "violation"... NOT..
Concerning the Sabbath it is a violation for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath as does a Jew. only a full convert is allowed, which would make one a Jew in every respect. Jewish Sanhedrin 58b
Honestly, i don't know. I've read so extensively... This is an obscure position. Let me give it to you as best as I can piece it together.Where does this come from? I would like to read or hear it.
Honestly, i don't know. I've read so extensively... This is an obscure position. Let me give it to you as best as I can piece it together.
To begin with, it is believed that the church at Rome was founded by believers who first heard the gospel in Jerusalem at Pentecost, listening to Peter preach after he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
There is a famous document where a historian during Claudius' reign named Suetonius writes, “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.”
There are two interpretations most probable for this. One is that there was a conflict between Jews and Christians in Rome, and the Jews got kicked out. The other possibility is that this uprising occurred during the time when Christians WERE mostly Jews, Messianic Jews, and they caused problems for the Romans, and so they got kicked out. This seems to be supported by Scripture.
Acts 18:2 “And he (Paul) found a certain Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently arrived from Italy with Priscilla his wife, on account of Claudius commanding all the Jews to leave Rome.”
So it would seem that the Church as it was originally founded in Rome was a Messianic Jewish Church, meaning full of Jewish believers.
It is believed that Peter had a hand in this for several reasons.
1. Acts 12:17 states that Peter "left for another place."
2. 1 Peter is written from "Babylon," first century Christian slang for the city of Rome, the heart of pagan hedonistic idolatry.
3. ECF referencing Peter in Rome. For example, Iranaeus, in "Against Heresies" states “Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, laying the foundations of the Church.”
The thing about Paul, is that by the time he wrote to the church at Rome, and by the time he actually got to Rome, a church already existed there.
After Claudius died, many of the Roman Jews that had been exiled did return, such as Aquila and Priscilla. But they would have found a very different church, with a Gentile majority and Gentile leadership. This was the Church that Paul wrote to.
It is thought that there was a LOT of ethnic tension in this Church -- in no other letter does Paul mention "Gentile" or "circumcision" as often. He seems to want to address the arrogance the church, looking down on unbelieving Jews as if they were better. But you have to wonder if some of the ethnic tension also existed between them and some of the minority Jewish believers.
Anyhow, that's how I remember it, and I've tried to google the documents that I remember being connected to it. At my age, I just no longer remember every book I've read. I wish I could provide a better citation for you.
Try quoting the relevant portions, since this is a forum.Try reading Avodah Zarah in the Mishnah alongside Romans 14. I think you will see the congruences.
Try quoting the relevant portions, since this is a forum.
More nonsensical man made laws that believers in Yeshua need not obey. They can't even agree whether they should be observed both before and after their festivals.Days:
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
MISHNA I.: Three days before the festivals 1 of the heathens it is forbidden to have any business with them. One must not lend them anything (which can be useful to them) nor borrow such from them. And the same is the case with cash money, even to pay or to receive payment is forbidden. R. Jehuda, however, maintains: To receive payment is allowed, because it is a displeasure to the payers. And he was answered: Although it is now a displeasure, it pleases them, in the future.
MISHNA. II.: R. Ismael said: Three days before and three days after it is prohibited. The sages, however, say: Before the festivals, but not after them.
MISHNA III.: The following are the festivals of the heathens: Kalends, Saturnalia, kratsin. The accession of their kings upon the throne, their birthday, and the day of their death. So R. Mair. The sages, however, maintain that only such a death on which burning (dresses) is used, is conjoined with worshipping the idols. But in such on which it is not used, there is no .idolatry. All, however, agree concerning the following days: That of shaving his beard and hair, that in which he lauds, that on which he was released from prison, and that on which is celebrated a marriage of his son that the prohibition concerns only one day, and the only one man engaged in this affair.
Hi Steve. This is interesting stuff. However, I don't see how it clarifies whether the church in Rome was Jewish or Gentile or combined when Paul wrote to it.Days:
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
MISHNA I.: Three days before the festivals 1 of the heathens it is forbidden to have any business with them. One must not lend them anything (which can be useful to them) nor borrow such from them. And the same is the case with cash money, even to pay or to receive payment is forbidden. R. Jehuda, however, maintains: To receive payment is allowed, because it is a displeasure to the payers. And he was answered: Although it is now a displeasure, it pleases them, in the future.
MISHNA. II.: R. Ismael said: Three days before and three days after it is prohibited. The sages, however, say: Before the festivals, but not after them.
MISHNA III.: The following are the festivals of the heathens: Kalends, Saturnalia, kratsin. The accession of their kings upon the throne, their birthday, and the day of their death. So R. Mair. The sages, however, maintain that only such a death on which burning (dresses) is used, is conjoined with worshipping the idols. But in such on which it is not used, there is no .idolatry. All, however, agree concerning the following days: That of shaving his beard and hair, that in which he lauds, that on which he was released from prison, and that on which is celebrated a marriage of his son that the prohibition concerns only one day, and the only one man engaged in this affair.
They are DISCUSSING it. You have to discuss it before you can come to an agreement. The point is to not engage in avodah zarah. The reality is that it takes tradition in order to have any communal cohesion on the matter, and tradition has to be worked out before it is settled.More nonsensical man made laws that believers in Yeshua need not obey. They can't even agree whether they should be observed both before and after their festivals.
So was it ever "settled"? Is it official that you can't do business with a Gentile three days before or after one of their festivals? Does anything in the Talmud ever get "settled"? Not that it matters since they are man made rules that put an undo burden upon the Jewish people which is why Yeshua rebuked them for it in the first place.They are DISCUSSING it. You have to discuss it before you can come to an agreement. The point is to not engage in avodah zarah. The reality is that it takes tradition in order to have any communal cohesion on the matter, and tradition has to be worked out before it is settled.
Hi Steve. This is interesting stuff. However, I don't see how it clarifies whether the church in Rome was Jewish or Gentile or combined when Paul wrote to it.
I never said entirely. Overwhelmingly, yes. But there had to have been some Jews, since after the exile was lifted some returned to Rome.If these were entirely Gentile congregations, none of this would matter. They must have been combined.
Go to chabad.org and use the ask a rabbi feature.So was it ever "settled"? Is it official that you can't do business with a Gentile three days before or after one of their festivals? Does anything in the Talmud ever get "settled"? Not that it matters since they are man made rules that put an undo burden upon the Jewish people which is why Yeshua rebuked them for it in the first place.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?