Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia

[Tyndale]

OK, I'm coming at this from as neutral a persective as I can. I understand why the early RC church introduced these Greek ideas. There's no doubt that their intentions were good. However, what I want to discuss here is whether, with hindsight, we think merging Polytheistic and Monotheist ideas on worship is a good thing?

Just because a church decision was made stating that you partake in Dulia when you pray to a Saint and you partake in Latria when you pray to God. The physical actions, which were so important when defining worship in the bible, are similar throughout all three degrees of reverence/worship here. As a Priest in the OT or a Christian in the NT you would be perplexed by this behaviour.

Can we as fallible human beings be content in the knowledge that the RC church officials have got this one right?

Have they defined worship/reverence to such a level that the 2nd commandment needs to be reworded or did they meddle too much with Polytheistic ideas just to accomodate for heathens?

 

[Dark_Lite]

So much for neutrality.

Are we really still arguing that physical actions are the only thing that matters? I thought that was disproven when the world realized Japan and Korea existed.

 

[Thaeoles]

One should not be content if one were to go by Scripture, wherein which there is no support for this division of worship.

 

[Standing Up]

Pope Leo I would know how to vote:

even some Christians think it is so proper to do this that, before entering the blessed Apostle Peter’s basilica, which is dedicated to the One Living and true God, when they have mounted the steps which lead to the raised platform, they turn round and bow themselves towards the rising sun and with bent neck do homage to its brilliant orb. We are full of grief and vexation that this should happen, which is partly due to the fault of ignorance and partly to the spirit of heathenism: because although some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light rather than the Light itself, which is His creature, yet we must abstain even from the appearance of this observance: for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship, will he not hark back again to this fragment of his old superstition, as if it were allowable, when he sees it to be common both to Christians and to infidels?
NPNF-212. Leo the Great, Gregory the Great | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Dark_Lite]

Pope Leo I would know how to vote:

even some Christians think it is so proper to do this that, before entering the blessed Apostle Peter’s basilica, which is dedicated to the One Living and true God, when they have mounted the steps which lead to the raised platform, they turn round and bow themselves towards the rising sun and with bent neck do homage to its brilliant orb. We are full of grief and vexation that this should happen, which is partly due to the fault of ignorance and partly to the spirit of heathenism: because although some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light rather than the Light itself, which is His creature, yet we must abstain even from the appearance of this observance: for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship, will he not hark back again to this fragment of his old superstition, as if it were allowable, when he sees it to be common both to Christians and to infidels?
NPNF-212. Leo the Great, Gregory the Great | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

But this poll isn't talking about sun worship or the appearance thereof.

 

[Standing Up]

But this poll isn't talking about sun worship or the appearance thereof.

Leo the Great was talking about the appearance of bowing as worship. Yes to the sun, but it could be to the moon or the stars or himself. The Pope said abstain from even the appearance. So, if one bows to a statue, it is the appearance of worship. The Pope said, don't do that.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Leo the Great was talking about the appearance of bowing as worship. Yes to the sun, but it could be to the moon or the stars or himself. The Pope said abstain from even the appearance. So, if one bows to a statue, it is the appearance of worship. The Pope said, don't do that.

It says sun. It doesn't say sun, moon, the stars, or himself. Stop reading your agenda into his words.

 

[Standing Up]

It says sun. It doesn't say sun, moon, the stars, or himself. Stop reading your agenda into his words.

Leo said, for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship, will he not hark back again to this fragment of his old superstition, as if it were allowable, when he sees it to be common both to Christians and to infidels?

Abstain even from the appearance of evil (1 Thes. 5:22). Paul and Leo have spoken.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Leo said, for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship, will he not hark back again to this fragment of his old superstition, as if it were allowable, when he sees it to be common both to Christians and to infidels?

Abstain even from the appearance of evil (1 Thes. 5:22). Paul and Leo have spoken.

Please stop reading your agenda into Leo's words and please stop taking him out of context.

I don't expect you to actually stop doing it, but I figure I'll ask one more time.

 

[Standing Up]

Here's a bit more from Leo against the practice:

Sun, moon, and stars may be most useful to us, most fair to look upon; but only if we render thanks to their Maker for them and worship God who made them, not the creation which does Him service.
NPNF-212. Leo the Great, Gregory the Great | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Don't worship (defined by him as bow) to the made, but only to the Maker.

PS. Feels a bit weird to argue for RC against RC.

 

[Standing Up]

OK, I'm coming at this from as neutral a persective as I can. I understand why the early RC church introduced these Greek ideas. There's no doubt that their intentions were good. However, what I want to discuss here is whether, with hindsight, we think merging Polytheistic and Monotheist ideas on worship is a good thing?

Just because a church decision was made stating that you partake in Dulia when you pray to a Saint and you partake in Latria when you pray to God. The physical actions, which were so important when defining worship in the bible, are similar throughout all three degrees of reverence/worship here. As a Priest in the OT or a Christian in the NT you would be perplexed by this behaviour.

Can we as fallible human beings be content in the knowledge that the RC church officials have got this one right?

Have they defined worship/reverence to such a level that the 2nd commandment needs to be reworded or did they meddle too much with Polytheistic ideas just to accomodate for heathens?

When were these definitions/differnces determined? Pre or post Leo the Great?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia

OK, I'm coming at this from as neutral a persective as I can

Can ya supply us with some Bible verses using those words? Thanks

 

[ivebeenshown]

Please stop reading your agenda into Leo's words and please stop taking him out of context.

I don't expect you to actually stop doing it, but I figure I'll ask one more time.

It's not any more obvious than that. Bowing to a statue, or anything, regardless of whether or not it is truly worshiping an idol, is the appearance of idolatry.

 

[Tyndale]

So much for neutrality.

Are we really still arguing that physical actions are the only thing that matters?

Was I not neutral?

As for the actions of the person, the early RC church leaders in their wisdom (wise or not), decided to fix the problem of worshipping multiple Gods. Was the RC church in the position to redefine the Greek idea of worshipping multiple Gods when the 2nd commandment didn't go into such detail ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's not any more obvious than that. Bowing to a statue, or anything, regardless of whether or not it is truly worshiping an idol, is the appearance of idolatry.

Romans 11:4 "But what is saying to him the divine-response 'I left to Myself seven-thousand who-any not bow/ekamyan <2578> (5656) a knee to baal <896>'"
[1 King 19:18]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7509824/
Diffefrence between Icons and Statues

 

[Dark_Lite]

Here's a bit more from Leo against the practice:

Sun, moon, and stars may be most useful to us, most fair to look upon; but only if we render thanks to their Maker for them and worship God who made them, not the creation which does Him service.
NPNF-212. Leo the Great, Gregory the Great | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Don't worship (defined by him as bow) to the made, but only to the Maker.

PS. Feels a bit weird to argue for RC against RC.

Do you even read the surrounding context of the snippets you post?

The paragraph is titled "VI. The festival has nothing to do with sun-worship, as some maintain." It's about the feast of the nativity. Later in the same work, there's even a whole section dedicated to a Saint.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Pope Leo I would know how to vote:

even some Christians think it is so proper to do this that, before entering the blessed Apostle Peter’s basilica, which is dedicated to the One Living and true God, when they have mounted the steps which lead to the raised platform, they turn round and bow themselves towards the rising sun and with bent neck do homage to its brilliant orb. We are full of grief and vexation that this should happen, which is partly due to the fault of ignorance and partly to the spirit of heathenism: because although some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light rather than the Light itself, which is His creature, yet we must abstain even from the appearance of this observance: for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship, will he not hark back again to this fragment of his old superstition, as if it were allowable, when he sees it to be common both to Christians and to infidels?
NPNF-212. Leo the Great, Gregory the Great | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The pope is agreeing with Duet 4:19 but just a few verses prior to that verse is Duet 4:16 which speaks the same in regards to graven images

I dont know how they get 3 words for worship I have found 10 words so far and where they are used wrongly. The blue highlighted words are those ten words here...


Heres two words for worship in the OT one in hebrew shachah # 7812 and the other in aramaic c&#277;gid # 5457 both are used interchangebly even in respects to what not to do with images. Examples of this are found in both Exodus 32:8 where shachah is used and in Dan 3:10 wherec&#277;gid is used

The word Paul uses in respects to the bowing of the knee to the image of Baal and includes in its definition "religious veneration" in Rom 11:4 its the word kampt&#333; # 2578 Outside of Rom 11:4 which is used in respects to the image of Baal is used only 3 other times and shown in truth belonging only to God as shown in Rom 14:11, Ephes 3:14 and Phil 2:10.

Here are some NT the Greek words for worship, one is proskyne&#333; # 4352 an example of which is shown in Rev 22:8 in respects to a man falling down before an angel and also a man falling down before the apostle Peter in Acts 10:35-36 Its also used in respects to figures they made in Acts 7:43. In the previous verse Acts 7:42 its used interchangably with the word latreu&#333; # 3000 in Acts 7:42 is the same word used in respects to serving the creature" more then the Creator (unto which He gave them up to) in Rom 1:25 . In Acts 7:42 it shows another word for worship which issebazomai # 4573 (which is to to fear, be afraid honour religiously, or to worship) the host of heaven in this example. That which they gave to the host of heaven and the creature also belongs to God only as Jesus himself confirms in Mat 4:10 And yet another word for worship is found in respects to visible devotions Paul tells them to repent of this shown in Acts 17:23 whereas here is the word eusebe&#333; # 2151 which means to dutifully regard (which they were doing) in respect to visible devotions, its used twice and shown (in truth) as belonging to family in respects to showing piety at home as shown in 1Ti 5:4 So its a displaced form of regarding one thing (as in "visible devotions" falsely so) over another (where such regarding should truely be placed). The other I found is called "will worship" ethelothr&#275;skia # 1479 and is used only once in Col 2:23

 

[Tyndale]

Oh no, pope leo argument

 

[Fireinfolding]

Do you even read the surrounding context of the snippets you post?

The paragraph is titled "VI. The festival has nothing to do with sun-worship, as some maintain." It's about the feast of the nativity. Later in the same work, there's even a whole section dedicated to a Saint.

Whats the feast of navity in respects to the sun?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh no, pope leo argument

Seems to be a popular name for the RCs "Papa"

Pope Leo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pope Leo was the name of thirteen Roman Catholic Popes:

• Pope Leo I Leo the Great (440–461)
• Pope Leo II (682–683)
• Pope Leo III (795–816)
• Pope Leo IV (847–855)
• Pope Leo V (903)
• Pope Leo VI (928)
• Pope Leo VII (936–939)
• Pope Leo VIII (964–965)
• Pope Leo IX (1049–1054)
• Pope Leo X (1513–1521)
• Pope Leo XI (1605)
• Pope Leo XII (1823–1829)
• Pope Leo XIII (1878–1903)