Last seeds of doubt

[98cwitr]

Reading through the Old Testament this evening, Micah through Zephaniah it started to creep up on me that there is no concept of hell as we understand it until the new testament. All this punishment and wrath leads to destruction and death in the old testament, but in the teachings of Christ, hell is a very apparent reality and place. Perplexed, it came over me that under the influences of Greek culture, hell would have been a valid part of society, and accepted part. I began to wonder if this was a mixing of Greek mythology and orthodox Judaism. If Christianity as a whole is true, then this cannot be the case at all, but I can't get it out of my head.

Christ, being who He is though, cannot lie, or teach falsehoods. So why no mention of eternal fire and torment until 4000 years later? Did it not exist? Was it not part of the punishment plan for the wicked?

I guess I [logically] am drawn back to my old ways...of thinking that (sometimes) I discredit Christianity entirely on the basis of religious formation from a sociological perspective instead of a factual one. If God exists and Jesus Christ is Emmanuel, then shouldn't we see the existence of hell from the beginning? I know that Hades is mentioned in the OT (but is translated as 'grave' in my Bible), but it is nowhere close to the description that we get in the New Testament. Strikes me as very odd.

I guess my question is (to not keep droning on in circles), why don't we see hell described in current form until the New Testament?

 

[dies-l]

Reading through the Old Testament this evening, Micah through Zephaniah it started to creep up on me that there is no concept of hell as we understand it until the new testament. All this punishment and wrath leads to destruction and death in the old testament, but in the teachings of Christ, hell is a very apparent reality and place. Perplexed, it came over me that under the influences of Greek culture, hell would have been a valid part of society, and accepted part. I began to wonder if this was a mixing of Greek mythology and orthodox Judaism. If Christianity as a whole is true, then this cannot be the case at all, but I can't get it out of my head.

Christ, being who He is though, cannot lie, or teach falsehoods. So why no mention of eternal fire and torment until 4000 years later? Did it not exist? Was it not part of the punishment plan for the wicked?

I guess I [logically] am drawn back to my old ways...of thinking that (sometimes) I discredit Christianity entirely on the basis of religious formation from a sociological perspective instead of a factual one. If God exists and Jesus Christ is Emmanuel, then shouldn't we see the existence of hell from the beginning? I know that Hades is mentioned in the OT (but is translated as 'grave' in my Bible), but it is nowhere close to the description that we get in the New Testament. Strikes me as very odd.

I guess my question is (to not keep droning on in circles), why don't we see hell described in current form until the New Testament?

I think that you confuse biblical notions of hell with later traditions and beliefs. Both the OT idea of Sheol and the NT idea of hell or Hades encapsulate the same idea of a realm in which the dead are destroyed and returned to the dust of the Earth.

 

[98cwitr]

Unfortunately, Sheol and hell I cannot correlate

"She'ol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), translated as "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead", is the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible's underworld, a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from God.[1]"

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's no fire in Shoel mentioned in the 65 OT instances of the word. And I also thought that hell was a permanent place or torment for only the wicked.

Psalm 30:3
O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.

Jonah 2:2
and he said, “I called out of my distress to the LORD, And He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice.

What is Abaddon? An angel right?

Proverbs 15:11
Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the LORD, How much more the hearts of men!

I guess the better question is: Why does the word Sheol not appear in NT?

 

[dies-l]

Unfortunately, Sheol and hell I cannot correlate

"She'ol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), translated as "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead", is the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible's underworld, a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from God.[1]"

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would suggest that this difference goes directly to the heart of the Gospel. The Gospel teaches that no one is righteous; therefore, we are all condemned to death. But, because of God's mercy, through Christ, the faithful will be redeemed. The idea of redemption is that God is taking back that which was lost, in this case, by our own sinfulness. Prior to the resurrection, there was no hope of redemption, so all were subject to death (Sheol).

There's no fire in Shoel mentioned in the 65 OT instances of the word.

I don't know what to tell you in that regard. The fact that no fire is mentioned, however, does not mean that it is not there. One possible explanation is that Christ offers more explanation that provided in the OT. Another explanation, however, is that they refer to two separate states of existence and/or places. I would lean more toward the former.

And I also thought that hell was a permanent place or torment for only the wicked.

Perhaps to the chagrin of other members of the forum, I do not believe that that is a biblical assumption. But, I know that my opinion in that regard is unpopular, so I will simply encourage to search the Scriptures to see what the NT teaches on Hell, Gehenna, Hades, the Lake of Fire, the Second Death, and so on. What I will focus on is what we should all be able to agree on, which is that Scripture does teach that hell is a place of "everlasting destruction". I don't see anything inconsistent this notion and the notion of the Sheol as the "abode of the dead". The dead, by definition, are destroyed.

Psalm 30:3
O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.

Jonah 2:2
and he said, “I called out of my distress to the LORD, And He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice.

What is Abaddon? An angel right?

Proverbs 15:11
Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the LORD, How much more the hearts of men!

I am not quite sure what the point of posting these is; perhaps, you can enlighten me.

I guess the better question is: Why does the word Sheol not appear in NT?

Because Sheol is a Hebrew concept and word, and the NT is written in Greek. Why would a Greek text contain a uniquely Hebrew word. I think you will find that Hades is a rough Greek approximation of the Hebrew concept of Sheol.

 

[98cwitr]

I just didn't think that there was any "return" from Hell...but there is return from Sheol.

I just stumbled across Abaddon and got curious

Well the words Abba, Rabbi, hosanna, Talitha Cumi, ephphatha, corban, etc etc are Hebrew and shows up in the NT...so why not Sheol?

 

[dies-l]

I just didn't think that there was any "return" from Hell...but there is return from Sheol.

I just stumbled across Abaddon and got curious

Well the words Abba, Rabbi, hosanna, Talitha Cumi, ephphatha, corban, etc etc are Hebrew and shows up in the NT...so why not Sheol?

I don't know. But, I would not be too concerned about the fact that a text that contains only a handful of Hebrew words and which has, in other instances replaces a completely Hebrew idea with a Greek word that only roughly approximates it (e.g., Messiah vs. Christ) uses another Greek word (Hades) as an approximation of a Hebrew concept (Sheol).

 

[98cwitr]

I guess that's my problem...Shoel and Hades don't seem to be the same thing according to Scripture, but logically the way the entire Bible reads, it would almost have to be.

 

[Anihilus]

Here are some things to consider,

Isaiah 33:14

"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

Jesus took some of His teaching on Hell directly from Isaiah also...

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isaiah 66:24

The final state of the wicked is not so clearly seen in the old testament as it is in the new, but that also goes with several other things such as salvation through faith alone, the purpose of the law, the church age, the inclusion of the Gentiles, etc... We can see hints of these things throughout the old and they are brought to light and made more clear in the new.

 

[David Pratt]

Hello 98-cwitr,

Like heaven, I "believe" hell has different levels.

I going to focus soley on the Lake of Fire & make the connection with the O.T. but I need to bring scriptures of the N.T. to make my point.


Focus on the keyword, "worm" but the answer you're seeking for is in Isaiah.




King James Version Bible



Ezekiel Chapter 18

1. The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

4. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Mark Chapter 9

44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Job Chapter 25

6. How much less man, [that is] a worm? and the son of man, [which is] a worm?


John Chapter 6

47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


Revelation Chapter 21

8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Isaiah Chapter 5

14. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

15. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

16. But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.


Matthew Chapter 13

41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Revelation Chapter 20

10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

14. And death and hellwere cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Isaiah Chapter 66

22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23. And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[David Pratt]

Isaiah Chapter 14

12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

 

[98cwitr]

Isaiah 66 hit the nail on the head...thanks David and Anihilus.

Mods...close this nonsense

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

The fact that the OT and NT don't really line up is a big clue that maybe something isn't quite right with the generally accepted view of hell. Is hell as taught today a doctrine of man, or a doctrine of God? You'll have to do your own study to find out for yourself, the Bible is right there, you just have to spend some time digging in.

Here are some sites with some interesting reads:

Hell, Heaven, and the Resurrection of the Dead, 2008
Truth According to Scripture - Defending the Christian Faith

Judge for yourself.

 

[dies-l]

The fact that the OT and NT don't really line up is a big clue that maybe something isn't quite right with the generally accepted view of hell. Is hell as taught today a doctrine of man, or a doctrine of God? You'll have to do your own study to find out for yourself, the Bible is right there, you just have to spend some time digging in.

Here are some sites with some interesting reads:

Hell, Heaven, and the Resurrection of the Dead, 2008
Truth According to Scripture - Defending the Christian Faith

Judge for yourself.

I found this article particularly helpful:

The Origin of Hell-Fire in Christian Teaching

 

[phoenixdem]

I found this article particularly helpful:

The Origin of Hell-Fire in Christian Teaching

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

 

[dies-l]

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

No.

 

[phoenixdem]

No.

I was wondering because your profile mentions that your ministry is the Children's Ministry.

My Christianity
Ministry Children's ministry This website is an organ of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church.

Children's Ministries

 

[dies-l]

I was wondering because your profile mentions that your ministry is the Children's Ministry.

My Christianity
Ministry Children's ministry This website is an organ of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church.

Children's Ministries

I just mean that I work in the children's ministry in my church. I used to anyway. When my wife and I got our own children, I took a break for a while from children's ministry.

 

[phoenixdem]

I just mean that I work in the children's ministry in my church. I used to anyway. When my wife and I got our own children, I took a break for a while from children's ministry.

Ok, thanks. Working with the children is an important thing.