Last Name

[lawndartboy]

Is there an Orthodox opinion on how last names work in marriage, should a woman take the mans last name? If so, what is the background story on this?

 

[Photini]

I have never heard any opinion about that. I honestly can't imagine that it matters. The only name any priest I've known is concerned about is what to call me at the chalice.

 

[Annoula]

never heard anything about this, and never thought about it either.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Don't know about the last names but the ring goes on the right hand finger not left

 

[Anhelyna]

To be honest - I think this is a cultural thing . I know several Frenchwomen who , on marriage , have retained their original last name [ ie Surname ].

 

[Ioannis]

I second the cultural thing. My uncle and aunt married and still live in Lebanon. She still has her last name. But, my other uncle and aunt who married in Lebanon but moved to the US...she took his last name when they moved here.

 

[lawndartboy]

I second the cultural thing. My uncle and aunt married and still live in Lebanon. She still has her last name. But, my other uncle and aunt who married in Lebanon but moved to the US...she took his last name when they moved here.

So i assume it is mainly a western tradition? Whose names would the children recieve i wonder where both couples retain their names?

 

[Ioannis]

So i assume it is mainly a western tradition? Whose names would the children recieve i wonder where both couples retain their names?

I don't know if it's a western thing. Someone with experience with Greek and Eastern European countries would have to answer that one. As for the children, in Lebanon, they take the father's name. Everything if passed through the father over there. For example, I can become a Lebanese citizen simply by filling out one piece of paper but if it were my mother who was Lebanese, I would have no right to Lebanese citizenship.

 

[rusmeister]

Human tradition - and certainly Christian tradition - has always determined that the family, having one flesh, shall have one name (whether it's "the house of Abraham" or "the Simpsons"). It saves on a lot of nonsense and stresses that the family is united - one unit; not something that be readily cut up if "it doesn't work out".
If my name is Vanck-Jensen, and my wife's name is Mathewes-Green, are our children Vanck-Jensen-Mathewes-Green, or Green-Jensen-Mathewes-Vanck?

Sure, people can make things up; "choose" one or the other, but all of those things really work towards the independence of the individual; a subtle contradiction to the idea of one-flesh, one-family.

So philosophically, it's really not good to buck tradition. I suppose feminism (that great bulwark of Orthodoxy... ) is a prime driving force behind the modern fashion to cast off tradition. And do we not join ourselves to Christ and take on the name "Christian"? We all submit to Christ, wives submit to their husbands, who in turn love their wives as Christ loves the Church. At least, that's the ideal - what we're supposed to do.

 

[Annoula]

the law has changed the last ...maybe 10-20 years and women can keep their last name. before that, women would take their husband's name and their children too.

the couple has to decide which surname their children will get before their wedding in front of a priest, mayor or notary. if they don't do that the children will get their father's surname.

that's what happens in Greece.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

In the Ethiopian tradition, the children get their father's first name. It's like being "son of so and so" or "daughter of so and so." But it means that the family does not all have the same surname. My female Ethiopian friends didn't take their husband's last name, which would make sense because it is their father in law's first name and that person isn't really your dad.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Oh and the "son of [first name]" format is the traditional Jewish format as well. Until a few centuries ago, Jews had their father's first name as a surname. Therefore, there are only 3 truly Hebrew surnames Levy, Cohen and Israel. The first two have to do with one's inherited role in the temple and the latter means you don't have a specific inherited role in the temple.

So not everyone in a family had the same surname (or what we think of as a surname at all) in Old Testament times or (I would think) in the early Hebrew churches.

Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. --Mark 10:35
There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. --Luke 2:36

Note that Anna had been married and yet she is identified by connection to her father's lineage, not her husband's house or lineage.

The traditonal surname pattern of having your father's first name is still the ritualistic custom in Judaism for official religious documents like marriage contracts. Family surnames must have been adopted for cultural reasons with families taking German, Russian, Polish or other names.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

These are examples from the Old Testament. All of these women are married and yet they are connected to their father’s line for identification, not their husband’s line:

So Jehoshaphat reigned over Judah. He was thirty-five years old when he became king of Judah, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-five years. His mother’s name was Azubah daughter of Shilhi. (2 chronicles 20:31)

Queen Esther, daughter of Abihail, (Esther 9:29)

Hezekiah was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. (2 Chronicles 29:1)

His mother’s name was Maakah, a daughter of Uriel of Gibeah. There was war between Abijah and Jeroboam. (2 Chronicles 13:2)

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Human tradition - and certainly Christian tradition - has always determined that the family, having one flesh, shall have one name (whether it's "the house of Abraham" or "the Simpsons"). It saves on a lot of nonsense and stresses that the family is united - one unit; not something that be readily cut up if "it doesn't work out".
If my name is Vanck-Jensen, and my wife's name is Mathewes-Green, are our children Vanck-Jensen-Mathewes-Green, or Green-Jensen-Mathewes-Vanck?

Sure, people can make things up; "choose" one or the other, but all of those things really work towards the independence of the individual; a subtle contradiction to the idea of one-flesh, one-family.

So philosophically, it's really not good to buck tradition. I suppose feminism (that great bulwark of Orthodoxy... ) is a prime driving force behind the modern fashion to cast off tradition. And do we not join ourselves to Christ and take on the name "Christian"? We all submit to Christ, wives submit to their husbands, who in turn love their wives as Christ loves the Church. At least, that's the ideal - what we're supposed to do.

Actually, it is traditional in Spain and some Spanish speaking countries that the children of a marriage get their father and mother's surnames joined together. In Spain, it is the law. Spanish women traditionally do not take their husband's surname, but rather keep their own father and mother's surname. If she did take her husband's surname, she would add it after her father's surname and drop her mother's surname.

So, there is precedent in Christendom (besides Ethiopia) for double barreled names and families not sharing the same exact surname that has nothing to do with feminism.

M.

 

[Photini]

Thank you Monica! Your posts were very interesting & informative.

 

[MKJ]

I think our modern surname systems are pretty, well, modern, anyway. There are all kinds of ways to identify people.

 

[Kristos]

by bucking tradition or common practice a statement is being made. What is that statement and why is it being made? If the answer is consistent with the Gospel, then it's probably okay. If it's not, then is it's not. Pretty simple really. People just don't like to admit that they are making a statement or try to appeal to their personal freedom as license to do whatever they want.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I think a statement is made when someone steps out of tradition. But I also think it is important not to pre-judge what that statement is, exactly. For example, I have my husband's last name, but my son has my maiden name along with his father's name. The reason was the fact that my father (an only child) didn't have any sons and I wanted someone to carry that name into the future.

M.

 

[MKJ]

I think a statement is made when someone steps out of tradition. But I also think it is important not to pre-judge what that statement is, exactly. For example, I have my husband's last name, but my son has my maiden name along with his father's name. The reason was the fact that my father (an only child) didn't have any sons and I wanted someone to carry that name into the future.

M.

It used to be very common for children to have their mother's maiden name as a middle name. And in some places, women when they married would keep their maiden name as a middle name.

I kept my name because I was cheap and lazy and did not want to go through the bureaucracy of having the army change all my paper-work, and pay to have all my ids and cards changed. But socially I pretty much use my husband's name.

 

[rusmeister]

Actually, it is traditional in Spain and some Spanish speaking countries that the children of a marriage get their father and mother's surnames joined together. In Spain, it is the law. Spanish women traditionally do not take their husband's surname, but rather keep their own father and mother's surname. If she did take her husband's surname, she would add it after her father's surname and drop her mother's surname.

So, there is precedent in Christendom (besides Ethiopia) for double barreled names and families not sharing the same exact surname that has nothing to do with feminism.

M.

FTR, Monica, I know you can find exceptions to any rule - but they ARE exceptions. Nor do I "pre-judge" individual circumstances. I speak of the general rule. In general, yes it most certainly IS related to feminism. Most of us are NOT in fact of that peculiar Spanish culture.

(And yes, I WILL knock on feminism in general - it IS about lifting up the individual and denying tradition - I just feel that when I do knock on it, you generally get up and defend it (and maybe my feelings are wrong, and if so, my apologies) - and I think I CAN show its anti-Christian philosophy (or more accurately, lack of coherent philosophy But that'd be a St Justin thread, I suppose).