Last days

[jgr]

Of course, there's nothing which says those are the only choices you have. You have the choice of ignoring both. That's the choice I have made. In each case the commentators are/were heavily influenced by doctrinal bias, in my opinion. And, let's not pretend that there was some kind of consensus among ECF writers when it comes to eschatology. There definitely was not.

They were in agreement that the Church would suffer under antichrist.

parousia70 has cited several others in post #17.

 

[parousia70]

We don't need to take to heart the words of false teachers. You put too much trust in man's fallible opinions.

Maybe Tell that to @Berean Tim, as I was merely addressing HIS appeal to the trustworthiness of the words of those teachers, since he was attempting to hold them up as some sort of evidence against my view.

I'm glad to see you agree and assert that ECF testimony is no such evidence against my view, and that we should prefer the inspired testimony of the ECF from AD30-70 over and above all later views.

 

[parousia70]

You have the choice of ignoring both. That's the choice I have made. In each case the commentators are/were heavily influenced by doctrinal bias

Seems strange you would spend anytime here providing commentary yourself, when you assert that non apostolic commentary is not something Christians should give any countenance to at all.

Maybe YOUR Commentary is the exception?

 

[Marilyn C]

It looks like you didn't read my post very carefully since you didn't address what I said about "the last days", so I'll try one more time. In the following passage Peter indicates that the last days would occur up until the second coming of Christ.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Can you see that Peter talked about scoffers in the last days who mockingly ask "Where is the promise of his coming"? That shows that "the last days" refers to "the last days" before Christ's return. That is the context of "the last days". Do you understand my point here?

Surely, Peter was not talking about scoffers who scoff after the return of Christ, but to scoffers who scoff before the return of Christ. So, the last days occur before His return. Yet, you somehow seem to be claiming that the last days extend beyond His return. That completely contradicts what Peter taught about the last days.

So let me explain in a bit more detail as to `come IN the last days scoffers...`

LAST DAYS

1. Day of Christ - from Pentecost till Joel 2. (building up and maturing the Body of Christ)
scoffers in the last days.

2. Day of the LORD (Almighty, judgment) - from Joel 2 (thr` trib, & mill) till NH & NE.
trib, scoffers in the last days.
Specific Day of the Lord when He comes to deliver Israel & judge the nations.

Millennium, scoffers that finally come against Jerusalem.

3. Day of God. Kingdom/all rule delivered to the Father that He may be all in all. Eternity.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Seems strange you would spend anytime here providing commentary yourself, when you assert that non apostolic commentary is not something Christians should give any countenance to at all.

Maybe YOUR Commentary is the exception?

You missed the point. I was not saying that no one should ever read anyone else's commentary on scripture. It wouldn't make sense for me to be here if I felt that way. I'm just saying to be careful not to put too much trust in commentaries as some people seem to do. Some people seem to treat the commentaries of the ECF writers like they're scripture. Same thing with how some people treat some of the more modern dispensational writers.

Either way, we should all be like the Bereans and study these things for ourselves to see if what others say is true or not (Acts 17:10-11).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So let me explain in a bit more detail as to `come IN the last days scoffers...`

LAST DAYS

1. Day of Christ - from Pentecost till Joel 2. (building up and maturing the Body of Christ)
scoffers in the last days.

2. Day of the LORD (Almighty, judgment) - from Joel 2 (thr` trib, & mill) till NH & NE.
trib, scoffers in the last days.
Specific Day of the Lord when He comes to deliver Israel & judge the nations.

Millennium, scoffers that finally come against Jerusalem.

3. Day of God. Kingdom/all rule delivered to the Father that He may be all in all. Eternity.

And, once again, you just ignored everything I said. Where does scripture refer to people scoffing after the return of Christ? In 2 Peter 3:3-4 Peter talked about the last days in terms of being the days that lead up to the return of Christ. You don't seem to want to talk about that.

 

[Timtofly]

And, once again, you just ignored everything I said. Where does scripture refer to people scoffing after the return of Christ? In 2 Peter 3:3-4 Peter talked about the last days in terms of being the days that lead up to the return of Christ. You don't seem to want to talk about that.

Those people will be dead and gone after the Second Coming. Only the righteous will be on earth waiting for the NHNE.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

The waiting "we" are the righteous on the earth. Paul's words:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Paul clearly pointed out the kingdom rule is after the Second Coming. The righteous will still wait after the Second Coming and the refining fire of the Second Coming, until Christ has reigned. John gives us the length of that wait as being 1000 years.

Peter even said not to be ignorant that it will seem like days instead of 1000 year periods.

Even Daniel pointed out it would be 3.5 "Days" from his time. That was pretty vague. It keeps getting clearer the closer we get to the end of those 3.5 days. If the 500 years between Daniel and Christ is not part of the "last days", that still leaves 3 last days.

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

Daniel was part of the firstfruits at the Cross, a last days resurrection. All of the OT redeemed were freed from death in Abraham's bosom. No one was left behind.

Amil have the "times" covered, but they forget the "time" is also part of the "last days". 3 last days.

 

[Berean Tim]

Maybe Tell that to @Berean Tim, as I was merely addressing HIS appeal to the trustworthiness of the words of those teachers, since he was attempting to hold them up as some sort of evidence against my view.

I'm glad to see you agree and assert that ECF testimony is no such evidence against my view, and that we should prefer the inspired testimony of the ECF from AD30-70 over and above all later views.

You once stated no ECF's mentioned the antichrist. I quickly prove that wrong. You are not an authority on the ECF's

 

[Marilyn C]

And, once again, you just ignored everything I said. Where does scripture refer to people scoffing after the return of Christ? In 2 Peter 3:3-4 Peter talked about the last days in terms of being the days that lead up to the return of Christ. You don't seem to want to talk about that.

I showed you that scoffers will be `in the Day of Christ,` (now when the Lord is building His Body) and then scoffers will also be `in the trib,` (for the specific day of the Lord hadn`t come) and finally there will be scoffers in the millennium for they gather outside Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I showed you that scoffers will be `in the Day of Christ,` (now when the Lord is building His Body) and then scoffers will also be `in the trib,` (for the specific day of the Lord hadn`t come) and finally there will be scoffers in the millennium for they gather outside Jerusalem.

You're not reading things in context. if you look at 2 Peter 3:3-4, the context is that they are scoffing at the promise of the second coming of Christ during the last days. That places the timing of the last days BEFORE the second coming of Christ. Clearly, no one will be scoffing at the promise of His second coming AFTER He returns.

You have no basis at all for claiming that it's talking about scoffers scoffing during a millennium that supposedly occurs after His return. There is no scripture that speaks of such a thing.

 

[Marilyn C]

You're not reading things in context. if you look at 2 Peter 3:3-4, the context is that they are scoffing at the promise of the second coming of Christ during the last days. That places the timing of the last days BEFORE the second coming of Christ. Clearly, no one will be scoffing at the promise of His second coming AFTER He returns.

You have no basis at all for claiming that it's talking about scoffers scoffing during a millennium that supposedly occurs after His return. There is no scripture that speaks of such a thing.

2 Peter 3: 3-4 I agree is talking about the last days which I see from God`s word as the Day of Christ and then the Day of the Lord.

No scripture refers to scoffers in the millennium however it is quite reasonable to suggest that people after centuries will be scoffing about God in charge of the world and thus try to do away with Jerusalem. However I take your point that they are not scoffing about Jesus` coming at that time.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

2 Peter 3: 3-4 I agree is talking about the last days which I see from God`s word as the Day of Christ and then the Day of the Lord.

For one thing it's talking about the last 24 hour days that occur before the return of Christ. The last days refers to a time period that occurs up until the return of Christ. That is the context because it's talking about scoffers scoffing during the last days at the promise of His second coming. The last days began already around the time of Pentecost according to Peter (read Acts 2:16-21), so it makes no sense to see "the day of Christ" and "the day of the Lord" as referring to the last days (as if the day of Christ and day of the Lord are the last days instead of referring to the last of the last days).

The context of 1 Thess 5 and 2 Peter 3 indicates that the day of the Lord/Christ will be the last day of the last days because they portray global destruction occurring on that day.

Also, "the Day of Christ" and "the day of the Lord" are the same thing. Christ is obviously the Lord, so it's just a case of using the terms "Christ" and "Lord" interchangeably.

No scripture refers to scoffers in the millennium however it is quite reasonable to suggest that people after centuries will be scoffing about God in charge of the world and thus try to do away with Jerusalem. However I take your point that they are not scoffing about Jesus` coming at that time.

You shouldn't base your doctrine on speculation, you should only base it on scripture.

 

[Marilyn C]

For one thing it's talking about the last 24 hour days that occur before the return of Christ. The last days refers to a time period that occurs up until the return of Christ. That is the context because it's talking about scoffers scoffing during the last days at the promise of His second coming. The last days began already around the time of Pentecost according to Peter (read Acts 2:16-21), so it makes no sense to see "the day of Christ" and "the day of the Lord" as referring to the last days (as if the day of Christ and day of the Lord are the last days instead of referring to the last of the last days).

The context of 1 Thess 5 and 2 Peter 3 indicates that the day of the Lord/Christ will be the last day of the last days because they portray global destruction occurring on that day.

Also, "the Day of Christ" and "the day of the Lord" are the same thing. Christ is obviously the Lord, so it's just a case of using the terms "Christ" and "Lord" interchangeably.

You shouldn't base your doctrine on speculation, you should only base it on scripture.

The Day of Christ refers to the Body of Christ being built and matured.

The Day of the LORD (Almighty God) refers to judgment upon the rebellious and deliverance of Israel. The OT prophets spoke of that Day but did NOT know of the Day of Christ building the Body of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Day of Christ refers to the Body of Christ being built and matured.

The Day of the LORD (Almighty God) refers to judgment upon the rebellious and deliverance of Israel. The OT prophets spoke of that Day but did NOT know of the Day of Christ building the Body of Christ.

There's no scriptural support for this whatsoever. The terms "the day of Christ" and "the day of the Lord" are used interchangeably in scripture. Christ is the Lord. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that the day of Christ is referring to something different than the day of the Lord. Both refer to the same thing and to the same thing Paul referred to here as well:

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The day of Christ/day of the Lord refers to the day that the Lord Jesus Christ returns.

 

[Marilyn C]

There's no scriptural support for this whatsoever. The terms "the day of Christ" and "the day of the Lord" are used interchangeably in scripture. Christ is the Lord. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that the day of Christ is referring to something different than the day of the Lord. Both refer to the same thing and to the same thing Paul referred to here as well:

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The day of Christ/day of the Lord refers to the day that the Lord Jesus Christ returns.

The Day of Christ, (& Lord Jesus Christ) refers to the Body of Christ. (Phil. 2: 16, 6 - 10, 1 Cor. 1: 7 & 8, 2 Cor. 1: 14)

The Day of the LORD refers to a day of darkness, war, wrath (time period) & also the specific day when the rebellious will be judged. (Joel 2, Zeph. 14 & 15, Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

 

[claninja]

When the bible talks about the last days, what does it mean?

first century:

Holy Spirit poured out in “last days”
Acts 2:16-17 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:17‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

paul believed he lived during the end of the ages
1 Corinthians 10:11 11Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

john believed it was the last hour
1 john 2:28 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come.

Peter believed the end had drawn near
1 peter 4:7 7The end of all things has drawn near ; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

james believed the coming of Christ had drawn near.
James 5:8-9 8You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord has drawn near . 9Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

The author of hebrews believed Christ would come in a little while without delay
hebrews 10:37 37For,“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not really.
Maybe no individual ECF held that ALL Eschatology was fulfilled in 70AD However, when we accumulate all the individual prophesies that any given ECF on their own DID believe to be fulfilled in 70AD, and put them together, we arrive very near a consistent preterist position, even if they were personally inconsistent on their application thereof.

For certain, the greatest number of the earliest Christians believed that a number of, if not all, prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem. The challenge, in fact, is to find even one early Christian that didn't teach the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24. The earliest and most significant writers were in unanimous agreement, proclaiming the fulfillment of these prophecies in the time of the AD70 destruction of the Jewish city, temple and nation.

Here's a snippet:

Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."

Chrysostom - Homilies on Matthew 24 "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it."

Chrysostom - St. Chrysostom's Liturgy "Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming"

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is past, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment

So, while they did not establish a biblically consistent preterism, they were far more preteristic in their understanding of eschatology than most modern futurists. The fact is that the ECFs had their hands full with formulating a consistent Christology (the nature of Christ and the Trinity), and didn't spend as much time formulating an orthodox, systematic eschatology. We know that the ECFs had mostly assigned Matthew 24 to the past, and the Protestant Reformers had a majority view that all Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

Classical preterism (i.e. The Catholic Preterism of the likes of James Aiken, Scott Hahn, St Cryssostom, St Thomas Aquinas, Eusebius, etc...) sees AD 70 as a temporal judgment of God/Christ.

St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Eusebius all understood this basic principle of bible eschatology, and we really ought to take their words to heart.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

And even St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (AD 336-395)
"Do we romance about three Resurrections? Do we promise the gluttony of the Millennium? Do we declare that the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored? Do we lower men's hopes again to the Jerusalem below, imagining its rebuilding with stones of a more brilliant material? What charge like these can be brought against us, that our company should be reckoned a thing to be avoided?"

Regardless, it's the views of the ECF from AD30-70 who's views we ought to prefer when they are shown to contradict the views of the Later ECF.

None of the ECFs were Preterist. What you claim as Preterist is also held by many Historicists and Posttribbers.

 

[parousia70]

None of the ECFs were Preterist. What you claim as Preterist is also held by many Historicists and Posttribbers.

Historicism
Amil
Postmil
All hold a greater degree of preterism than:
Premil
Postmil
Pretrib
Midtrib
Postrib
Dispy
However, all Christian’s believe and affirm at least SOME “Last Days” prophesy was fulfilled in the 1st century, as the Bible testifies.

There is not one Christian who believes the fulfillment of the last days prophesy recorded Acts 2:16-18 was NOT fulfilled in the 1st century.
Such a “past fulfilled” view of “last days prophesy” is exclusively preterist, by definition.
All Christians are preterist.
We only vary by degree.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Historicism
Amil
Postmil
All hold a greater degree of preterism than:
Premil
Postmil
Pretrib
Midtrib
Postrib
Dispy
However, all Christian’s believe and affirm at least SOME “Last Days” prophesy was fulfilled in the 1st century, as the Bible testifies.

There is not one Christian who believes the fulfillment of the last days prophesy recorded Acts 2:16-18 was NOT fulfilled in the 1st century.
Such a “past fulfilled” view of “last days prophesy” is exclusively preterist, by definition.
All Christians are preterist.
We only vary by degree.

We are also all Futurists.

 

[eclipsenow]

In Acts 2 Peter explains Pentecost from Joel:
“‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people."

And again, John says it:

1 John 2:18 "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

And again, in showing us the sufficiency of Scriptures to meet our needs and why we don't need prophets any more, Hebrews says:

Hebrews 1:1 "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."

The bottom line? We're in the End Game now - and have been for 2000 years. And might be for another 2000 years. Or the Lord Jesus could return in 2 seconds. We just don't know. So rather than try and guess at some non-existent 'Last Days' timetable (because everything's been fulfilled in Jesus already), get on with the gospel work. Because he will return! But also plan for your career and superannuation and retirement, because he might not yet.