Land promises to Israel conditional?

[Vanellus]

I was struck recently by Psalm 132, particularly

The Lord swore an oath to David, a sure oath he will not revoke: “One of your own descendants I will place on your throne.
12If your sons keep my covenant and the statutes I teach them, then their sons will sit on your throne for ever and ever.”
13For the Lord has chosen Zion, he has desired it for his dwelling, saying,
14“This is my resting place for ever and ever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.

Of course the Israelites didn't always keep the covenant (who has!) and they were displaced by the Babylonians and later by the Romans. However, the language here suggests the ark of the covenant in the temple and that again did not last for ever.

Now that seems to contradict this particular promise. Maybe it means God is enthroned in Mt. Zion whether or not a temple is there - but then God is omnipresent - the specialness (being "enthroned") to me means the temple and the ark.

Now as a young Christian I was told to take the NT promises on prayer together rather than individually i.e not to take one and ignore the others.

So is this the case here. God's dwelling in the land is elsewhere described as conditional e.g.

As for this temple you are building, if you follow my decrees, observe my laws and keep all my commands and obey them, I will fulfill through you the promise I gave to David your father. 13And I will live among the Israelites and will not abandon my people Israel.”

1 Ki 6:12,13

Although this promise is to Solomon but did he keep the covenant given all those foreign wives etc. Does Solomon stand here for future kings and the nation as a whole?

 

[annier]

I was struck recently by Psalm 132, particularly



Of course the Israelites didn't always keep the covenant (who has!) and they were displaced by the Babylonians and later by the Romans. However, the language here suggests the ark of the covenant in the temple and that again did not last for ever.

Now that seems to contradict this particular promise. Maybe it means God is enthroned in Mt. Zion whether or not a temple is there - but then God is omnipresent - the specialness (being "enthroned") to me means the temple and the ark.

Now as a young Christian I was told to take the NT promises on prayer together rather than individually i.e not to take one and ignore the others.

So is this the case here. God's dwelling in the land is elsewhere described as conditional e.g.

1 Ki 6:12,13

Although this promise is to Solomon but did he keep the covenant given all those foreign wives etc. Does Solomon stand here for future kings and the nation as a whole?

I am not sure if you are mixing the heavenly things with the earthly things in the above.
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Ga 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[Vanellus]

As a newbie I don't know if you can edit the thread title - since rather than "Land Promises" my post was really about God's promise to dwell in the land in the midst of the Israelites.

Hi annier,

Yes that may be part of the answer. God made these conditional promises that the Israelites faild to keep - a recurring theme of the OT. But God was looking forward to a better covenant which is conditional on faith not obedience to laws.

There's a brilliant John Newton hymn that sums up your point well
(Must be sung to the right tune though! not the German national anthem)

Glorious things of thee are spoken,
Zion, city of our God!
He, whose Word cannot be broken,
Formed thee for His own abode.
On the Rock of Ages founded,
What can shake thy sure repose?
With salvation’s walls surrounded,
Thou may’st smile at all thy foes.

See! the streams of living waters,
Springing from eternal love;
Well supply thy sons and daughters,
And all fear of want remove:
Who can faint while such a river
Ever flows their thirst t’assuage?
Grace, which like the Lord, the giver,
Never fails from age to age.

Round each habitation hovering,
See the cloud and fire appear!
For a glory and a covering
Showing that the Lord is near.
Thus deriving from our banner
Light by night and shade by day;
Safe they feed upon the manna
Which He gives them when they pray.

Blest inhabitants of Zion,
Washed in the Redeemer’s blood!
Jesus, whom their souls rely on,
Makes them kings and priests to God.
’Tis His love His people raises,
Over self to reign as kings,
And as priests, His solemn praises
Each for a thank offering brings.

Savior, if of Zion’s city,
I through grace a member am,
Let the world deride or pity,
I will glory in Thy name.
Fading is the worldling’s pleasure,
All his boasted pomp and show;
Solid joys and lasting treasure
None but Zion’s children know.

 

[annier]

As a newbie I don't know if you can edit the thread title - since rather than "Land Promises" my post was really about God's promise to dwell in the land in the midst of the Israelites.

Hi annier,

Yes that may be part of the answer. God made these conditional promises that the Israelites faild to keep - a recurring theme of the OT.

Yes, God made a covenant with The nation of Israel which he knew and foretold they would not keep even before he brought them into the land of promise.
But, the apostle Paul teaches us....
Ro 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

De 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

De 31:20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.

But God was looking forward to a better covenant which is conditional on faith not obedience to laws.

There is the law of faith however.....

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The covenant made with their fathers, ( Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) was a covenant of promises by God. which covenant was not added to nor taken away from at Sinai.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. {covenant: or, testament}
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Since God's promises are sure even before the law given at Sinai, the grace extended in the covenant of circumcision was increased as the law from Sinai could not add to, nor take away from the prior covenant.

 

[ebedmelech]

It has to be understood that the New Covenant moved to the spiritual application...we now have "the Jerusalem above" and the temple in heaven.

Jesus took the focus off earthly thing as he spoke to "the woman at the well" in John 4.

 

[ebedmelech]

It has to be understood that the New Covenant moved to the spiritual application...we now have "the Jerusalem above" and "the temple in heaven".

Jesus took the focus off earthly thing as he spoke to "the woman at the well" in John 4.

 

[msortwell]

Psalm 132 records David's reflection upon what has come to be called The Davidic Covenant. The following link includes a reasonable description of the covenant and the text within which we can read of it.


Davidic Covenant

Jesus, as a man, is the fully righteous son of David. All that was promised to David or to Abraham, that came with conditions, was earned by the obedience of the Christ. Jesus is the literal seed of Abraham and of David, and Jesus' obedience was perfect. And any, that by grace, through faith, have been baptized into Christ by the spirit are joint heirs with Christ and the beneficiaries of all that he has earned.

 

[klibera]

The Covenant is not conditional because that would show that the Lord can't make up his mind. Now granted over the millennia the Israelites struggle with this & that-that is the burden of being chosen. God did not promise fairness. The word chosen means burden. I think for the most part the Jewish people have displayed devotion to God-watch them at the wall. Regarding the enigma of their blindness toward Christ, read Paul: Romans. It is a temporary blindness & purposeful. It will change on God's watch.

 

[Vanellus]

The Covenant is not conditional because that would show that the Lord can't make up his mind.

This argument can't work as it would mean that God couldn't make any promises that are conditional. It's not that God changes his mind at all. He made up his mind to make a conditional promise and fulfilling that promise depended on the other party (Israel) keeping to the conditions.

Rejecting Christ means rejecting God.

 

[Hismessenger]

Why are we always caught on the ground?

hismessenger

 

[Danoh]

It has to be understood that the New Covenant moved to the spiritual application...we now have "the Jerusalem above" and "the temple in heaven".

Jesus took the focus off earthly thing as he spoke to "the woman at the well" in John 4.

Acts 1's physical restoration question...

...in light of Acts 3's said restoration promise reasserted...

...together with 2 Peter 3's...

...relating Romans 9-11's explanation of only its delay...

...might beg to differ.

 

[riverrat]

Acts 1's physical restoration question...

...in light of Acts 3's said restoration promise reasserted...

...together with 2 Peter 3's...

...relating Romans 9-11's explanation of only its delay...

...might beg to differ.

Danoh: Please note that this is not just ebed's opinion. It is truth. LOL

 

[Hismessenger]

Can you inherit something that won't exist? The earth as we know it will no longer be here so what land has God promised to Israel? It can't be this earth. Think in the spirit and not in the flesh.

hismessenger

 

[Righttruth]

This argument can't work as it would mean that God couldn't make any promises that are conditional. It's not that God changes his mind at all. He made up his mind to make a conditional promise and fulfilling that promise depended on the other party (Israel) keeping to the conditions.

Rejecting Christ means rejecting God.

 

[Knee V]

The reality of the land promises are prefigured when Joshua ("Yeshua" in Hebrew) brings the Israelites across the Jordan River to the land of Canaan and the Israelites take possession of it. Toward the end of the book of Joshua, it is made abundantly clear that all of God's promises to the Israelites concerning land have been completely fulfilled in their entirety.

Fast-forward 1500 years or so and the Apostle Paul, in 2Cor 1:20, tells us that all the promises of God are "yes" and "amen" in Christ. In other words, all the promises that God has made find their meaning and fulfillment in the Person of Christ. It is Christ Himself (spelled the same as Joshua's name in Hebrew, Yeshua) that the land promises, as well as all the promises to Israel, were referring to.

 

[Vanellus]

The reality of the land promises are prefigured when Joshua ("Yeshua" in Hebrew) brings the Israelites across the Jordan River to the land of Canaan and the Israelites take possession of it. Toward the end of the book of Joshua, it is made abundantly clear that all of God's promises to the Israelites concerning land have been completely fulfilled in their entirety.

Fast-forward 1500 years or so and the Apostle Paul, in 2Cor 1:20, tells us that all the promises of God are "yes" and "amen" in Christ. In other words, all the promises that God has made find their meaning and fulfillment in the Person of Christ. It is Christ Himself (spelled the same as Joshua's name in Hebrew, Yeshua) that the land promises, as well as all the promises to Israel, were referring to.

 

[Righttruth]

The rainbow covenant is unconditional. It doesn't mean that God will never destroy the wicked generation. He will, of course, by others methods. God never gives a covenant as a licence to practice sinfulness.

 

[random person]

The rainbow covenant is unconditional. It doesn't mean that God will never destroy the wicked generation. He will, of course, by others methods. God never gives a covenant as a licence to practice sinfulness.

He preserved Noah and his family alone of the land, which held the line of Christ.

Whereas the destruction of Jerusalem, he spared his faithful Christians but didn't spare the unbelieving Jews of the land.

 

[Righttruth]

He preserved Noah and his family alone of the land, which held the line of Christ.

Whereas the destruction of Jerusalem, he spared his faithful Christians but didn't spare the unbelieving Jews of the land.

God as the Potter has His own plans and ways. We can't fully understand Him. Therefore, there is no use trying private interpretation that may lead to more damages.

 

[ebedmelech]

The Covenant is not conditional because that would show that the Lord can't make up his mind. Now granted over the millennia the Israelites struggle with this & that-that is the burden of being chosen. God did not promise fairness. The word chosen means burden. I think for the most part the Jewish people have displayed devotion to God-watch them at the wall. Regarding the enigma of their blindness toward Christ, read Paul: Romans. It is a temporary blindness & purposeful. It will change on God's watch.

Read Deuteronomy 28 as well as Leviticus 26:14-46 and then explain how the covenant was not conditional.