Ladies Only, Please.

[Dr. Shon]

Dear Ladies,
The definition of Messianic is stated as believing in Jesus and following Torah. I decided to go back to the Old Testament and read some of Leviticus again to remind myself of some of the laws.
Just how literally do Messianics follow Torah? I mean, do women seclude themselves one week out of the month? And do they seclude themselves for a month or two after the birth of a child?
Please help me to understand.
Thank you very much.

 

[blessed2]

Hi dr. Shon,
Others will certainly give you more info than I on this subject but I'll give what I understand on this.
A week every month:
For this week they will refrain from contact with the husband, even placing a barrier between in bed or between them in a car seat etc. After the week for purification with
perform a mikvah (ritual bath) but this has specifics not just a bath. (I'll see if I can find some material on this for you as well.)
I believe the after birthing is similar to this.

 

[visionary]

Most woman are told to wait six weeks after birth of a child before resuming sexual relations for health reason by their doctor. Two months is not out of the question.

It is also a health issue not to have sexual relations after period starts, as the mucus plug is gone and will not be back until seven days later when the progesterone cycle is up. That mucus plug is the womans protection from infections like pelvic inflamatory disorders.

This has been discussed on this forum.

http://www.christianforums.com/t157303-woman-only-question-handling-of-the-word.html

 

[blessed2]

MIKVAH SPECIFICATIONS

The mikvah must meet six special requirements as described in Oral Torah.

1. No other liquid but water may be used in the Mikvah, no coloring or chemicals, etc.
   
2. The Mikvah must be built into the ground, or be a part of a building attached to the ground. It cannot consist of any vessel that can be disconnected and carried away, such as a tub, vat, or barrel.
   
3. The water of a Mikvah cannot be running or flowing. The only exception to this rule is a natural spring, or a river whose water is derived mainly from springs.
   
4. The water of the Mikvah be brought together by natural means not drawn.
   
5. The water cannot be channeled to the Mikvah through anything that can become tomeh/unclean, such as pipes or channels made of metal, clay, or wood.
   
6. The Mikvah must contain no less than 40 Sa'ah of water, that is approximately 150 to 200 gallons.

The method of immersion as practiced by all the Old Testament people and including Yochanan haMatvil/John the Baptist was very different from what we do today. The person was to already have taken a bath, washed his hair, pared his fingernails and make sure that he was very clean. The Mikvah was not for the purpose of taking a bath. The person being immersed went into the water by himself, stretching out his arms, flexing his fingers, fluttering his eyelids he squats down into the water until he is completely covered by water. Flexing the fingers and toes, fluttering the eyelids was to insure that the water touched every part of the body. Normally a person would do this three times. The witness was the person that stood out of the water to make sure that the immersing person was completely covered by the water.


It is my understanding that nothing should form a barrier between you and the water..

 

[MyLittleWonders]

Mikvah.org has some wonderful information about the mikvah. (And some beautiful pictures in their virtual tour. My question, though, is how can a Messianic Jew partake in the mikvah ... Also, how much of the Oral Law regarding mikvah is tradition versus the actual instructions in the Written Law? (I haven't done much study on the concept of niddah and mikvah yet as I'm still nursing my younger son and haven't needed the mikvah on a monthly basis yet. ) I would love the blessing of the mikvah but just wonder if that is a possibility for a Messianic Jew vs. an orthodox/conservative/non-Messianic Jew.

 

[blessed2]

I actually heard of it first here in the forums by MJ who perform this.
I'm sure they'll contribute to the thread.

 

[Dr. Shon]

Thank you for the information, Ladies. It is helpful and much appreciated. But I gathered from the Scriptures that anything a woman touches while she is unclean then becomes unclean itself. And anyone who touches what is unclean becomes unclean. That was the part that made me wonder how women today function. It seems like it would be a domino effect. A woman cooks breakfast for her husband. She touches the dishes and they become unclean. He touches the dishes and he becomes unclean. Anybody who touches him or anything else he touches becomes unclean. See what I mean? And if the woman has a job and goes to work during this time. What effect does that have on her co-workers? See what I mean? I hope and pray I do not sound harsh or sarcastic or stupid. I am sincerely trying to understand how it could work in today's society. Thank you once again for your patience and persistence in educating me.

 

[Henaynei]

Dear Ladies,
The definition of Messianic is stated as believing in Jesus and following Torah. I decided to go back to the Old Testament and read some of Leviticus again to remind myself of some of the laws.

Good idea!!

Just how literally do Messianics follow Torah?

This will vary from community to community, just like in non-Messianic Judaism, and from woman to woman.

I mean, do women seclude themselves one week out of the month? And do they seclude themselves for a month or two after the birth of a child?

Well, the actual command is to "set apart", not seclude. And it is for 2 weeks (approximately) not one. It is the time of the flow until the beginning of the "white days" and for 7 "white days." This brings the physical intimate reunion to the time of peak fertility, the mid point of her cycle for most women.

19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.(this is the time of her flow until there is no more evidence of any blood)
28 But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. (this is the time after the flow has stopped when the clean days are counted - after which she goes to the mikvah and comes home to physically imtimately reunite with her husband)

Observant women do not leave the community or their homes - rather they separate themselves within the home and refrain from the various activities which constitute "touching" or tempting to touching. There is much to learn about the third pillar of Judaism: Taharat HaMishpocha/Family Purity. (the other 2 are Shabbat & Kashrut)

 

[Sephania]

Some men can't read.

 

[Blueskies]

It seems to be that this has been badly translated into English. I will study this more fully at a future date, but looking at through the eyes of common sense, there are a few things one has to conclude.

If a woman were to not touch ANYTHING during these times, than biblical man would have been on his own a week each month and for weeks after every child birth. He would have been forced to clean the home, care for the children, cook all of the meals, as well as take care of all the outside work.

It must not be literal. It's not possible. Before you tell me that all men had more than one wife, no, the priests did not, and many men considered more than one wife to be more trouble than a brood of snakes in a toilet. I'm going to look into these word meaning a little more fully and see what I can come up with.

Shalom

blue

 

[Sephania]

Torah Observant Messianic Judaism


http://www.lightofmashiach.org/women/niddah.html

They have some other titles under the heading "Women" check out the front page in the middle under lifestyle.

http://www.lightofmashiach.org/

 

[Wags]

You might find some interesting reading at this web site: Women's On-line
Information Center The Jerusalem Center for Advanced Jewish Study for Women.

 

[Henaynei]

http://www.lightofmashiach.org/women/niddah.html

I have to say that while I honor and respect much of what TOMJ teaches I have to speak out in rebuttal to the assertion on this site that the additional 7 days that are counted after a woman's flow stops is rabbinic - it is not rabbinic, it is scriptural:

19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood (her menstral flow or any other blood), she shall be put apart seven days (during the time of her issue of blood): and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.(this is the time of her flow until there is no more evidence of any blood)
[the intervening verses do not in any way state that a woman is clean after the seven days of flow have stopped - continue reading]
28 But if she be cleansed of her issue (her menstral flow or any other blood have stopped), then she shall number to herselfseven days, and after that she shall be clean. (this is the time after the flow has stopped when the clean days are counted - after which she goes to the mikvah and comes home to physically imtimately reunite with her husband)

as to separation - scripture AND the rabbis agree - touching is forbidden, laying or sitting where she sat or laid is forbidden - however, touching that which she has touched is NOT forbidden, such as the dinner she cooked and dishes she handled. Kavannah is applied to the simple acts of married life - one finds one's attention focused on the smallest and taken for granted acts between couples - each becomes an act of love and obedience to HaShem and we are forced to each deliberately practice ways *other than touch* to communicate our love, encouragement, support and comfort between each other - AND when we are permitted to each other again it is not unlike having a honeymoon each month - that thrill of touching is once again fresh and new..... such a gift those who neglect Family Purity never experience

we need to be very careful what we run across that states that it is not given al pe Adoni/from the hand of HaShem - when it is carefully laid out in scripture we need to be as careful to search out to see if is IS from HaShem as we are to accept that it is not

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[By Grace]

My understanding of the passage is that the additional seven days only applies if the blood flow lasts longer than the normal week, or if it occurs at a time when it shouldn't. I know that's not the rabbinic take on it, though...

 

[Henaynei]

My understanding of the passage is that the additional seven days only applies if the blood flow lasts longer than the normal week, or if it occurs at a time when it shouldn't. I know that's not the rabbinic take on it, though...

I see - can you explain from the passage how you have come to this conclusion? I'd be interested to know

 

[Dr. Shon]

Thank you so much! The fog is definitely beginning to clear and things are making more sense. I appreciate you ladies taking the time and energy to help me learn. Thank you!

 

[ShirChadash]

I have to say that while I honor and respect much of what TOMJ teaches I have to speak out in rebuttal to the assertion on this site that the additional 7 days that are counted after a woman's flow stops is rabbinic - it is not rabbinic, it is scriptural: as to separation - scripture AND the rabbis agree - touching is forbidden, laying or sitting where she sat or laid is forbidden - however, touching that which she has touched is NOT forbidden, such as the dinner she cooked and dishes she handled. Kavannah is applied to the simple acts of married life - one finds one's attention focused on the smallest and taken for granted acts between couples - each becomes an act of love and obedience to HaShem and we are forced to each deliberately practice ways *other than touch* to communicate our love, encouragement, support and comfort between each other - AND when we are permitted to each other again it is not unlike having a honeymoon each month - that thrill of touching is once again fresh and new..... such a gift those who neglect Family Purity never experience

we need to be very careful what we run across that states that it is not given al pe Adoni/from the hand of HaShem - when it is carefully laid out in scripture we need to be as careful to search out to see if is IS from HaShem as we are to accept that it is not

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Just because I got confused a moment and mistook one site for the other (just in this discussion) and thought it might be good to point it out,

the TOMJ site I was familiar with is
http://www.geocities.com/rabbi1.geo/beit.html

And the "Light of Mashiach" page is
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/

So I thought you were referring to one site when you referred to another. .

Also, I do see the 7 additional "clean" days as Rabbinic and not as Biblical. I am unaware that there is any Scripture mandating a husband and wife to keep separate for a certain number of non-blood-tinged days after the menstrual flow has ceased. Not touching while bleeding? Yes. But "clean" days? No, I didn't see anything in your post above, Henny, to suggest there is a Scripture teaching for this concept.

I, however, have no problem with the Rabbinic halacha on this; I simply see it as Rabbinic (which IMHO is valid for the purposes of living within community) and do not (yet?) find the extra 7 days post-menstrual an explicit mandate in the Torah. Knowing how a woman's body works, and not seeing this explicitly lain out in Scripture, leads me to believe it is indeed a Rabbinic hedge, at this point in my own studying. Bear with me and forgive me if I am incorrect, as I have had little time to look into such matters lately.

b'Shalom

 

[Sephania]

And from a mans point of view waiting seven days is like forever. It takes some getting used to especially if you aren't brought up that way. But for half a year separation? I don't see why or how HaShem would do this as this would I believe test men unjustly. Also I have read somewhere that certain Rabbi teach that separation begins 5 days before you expect your period to start, just in case you happen to start early I guess so defiling doesn't take place. This leaves the couple with only 9 days a month to sleep together which can leave them both pretty lonely and open to all kinds of temptations.

 

[Sephania]

Is there are word for 'but' in the Hebrew language?

 

[Sephania]

19 "'If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, she will be in her state of niddah for seven days. Whoever touches her will be unclean until evening. 20 Everything she lies on or sits on in her state of niddah will be unclean. 21 Whoever touches her bed is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening. 22 Whoever touches anything she sits on is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening. 23 Whether he is on the bed or on something she sits on, when he touches it, he will be unclean until evening. 24 If a man goes to bed with her, and her menstrual flow touches him, he will be unclean seven days; and every bed he lies on will be unclean. 25 "'If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days not during her period, or if her discharge lasts beyond the normal end of her period, then throughout the time she is having an unclean discharge she will be as when she is in niddah -she is unclean. 26 Every bed she lies on at any time while she is having her discharge will be for her like the bed she uses during her time of niddah; and everything she sits on will be unclean with uncleanness like that of her time of niddah. 27 Whoever touches those things will be unclean; he is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening. 28 "'If she has become free of her discharge, she is to count seven days; after that, she will be clean. 29 On the eighth day, she is to take for herself two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the cohen at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 30 The cohen is to offer the one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering; thus the cohen will make atonement for her before ADONAI on account of her unclean discharge.

Verse 19 if a womans discharge is blood seven days are already prescribed, but we all know that not all woman have seven days of bleeding, it is more common for five but the L-RD set it at seven none the less. If a man touches her flow he is not unclean for the day but also for seven days, so to me the uncleaness is when it is present not afterwards a whole week.