Lack of knowledge = Hell?

[LiturgyInDMinor]

We can only be saved by the blood of Christ.

You are correct.

 

[Yab Yum]

Are people chosen by chance who and who aren't exposed to the word of Christ. All men are sinners but why do only certain people get a chance to be saved? Can somebody be saved by the blood of Christ unconsciously without hearing the word but being morally upright?

Nope. Sorry. Morality irrelevant. Only lottery winners allowed here.

 

[Tzaousios]

I didn't judge him. He said, basically, that everyone is a sinner and if people die without hearing how they can be saved, bad luck; they will be punished for being sinners, even though they didn't know they were, and were unable to repent.

I am sorry, but despite the "questions" that you asked, it was very judgmental to tell him that he worships a "nasty god," lowercase g, no less. You did not even give him the benefit of the doubt nor endeavor to find out why before you said that.

Secondly, I think it is belittling to label the end result of what he said as merely bad luck. What DD2008 explained is a Scriptural fact - sinners are sinners before God whether they know it or not. They stand convicted by virtue of their father Adam.

Matthew 20.28

28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

It is as it says; Jesus came to give his life as a ransom. I believe it says "for many" because many will accept, but not all; NOT because only some of the many people who have lived since the resurrection will be chosen to be saved.

Good. So we both understand that not all will be saved, but many will be. The question now is who are the "many" and how is their salvation effected?

Concerning your use of the word "accept", could you explain what you mean by that?

Romans 1:18-21

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

It says that even though they knew God, they did not honour him. Some people know God, but choose not to honour him as God or give thanks to him. Maybe this means they have head knowledge only, maybe they believe in God and only call upon him when it suits them, or they want something from him. Maybe they claim to know him, because they hear the Gospel in church each week, but they actually only know about him, and their faith has little impact.

Which is it, though? If Paul's meaning is plain there should be no real searching for a reason.

Indeed it does say "even though they knew God." But that phrase is dependent on what comes before it, namely that God revealed himself through his wrath and sovereignty over nature. He made is plain to them that he does not tolerate sin and that it must be punished. That is how they know him yet they still reject him and hate the things of God. I think Paul is addressing the very problem which has arisen here and says that none have an excuse for unbelief and disobedience. This includes the the people on the tropical island and those sitting in the pews every Sunday.

People living on some remote island somewhere who have not heard the Gospel, do not know God. They may be able to look at creation and give thanks that there is a higher power who made all that - but they don't know the God who was revealed to us in Jesus, if they have never heard of Jesus.

Respectfully, is that really what Paul says above or is it something you tell yourself to assuage your own conscience?

I think the key is revealed in some of the other passages which I posted.

Romans 9:22-23

22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.

I don't know what to make of that, I'd need to think about it a bit more. It seems to contradict other Scriptures which say that God wants everyone to be saved, that Jesus died for all, that God made everyone in his image, knows us all intimately (Psalm 139) and by name, (Isaiah 43).

You have not read Romans 9 before? It is an extremely important passage and must be grappled with.

Personally, and I am saying this in general and not about anyone in particular, it is of tantamount importance for Christians to read this chapter and try to come to grips with it. I think it is the difference between the milk and the meat of the Christian life and understanding.

But we know that, since Scripture does not contradict itself because of its divine mediation and inspiration, it must mean something and cannot be discarded.

Concerning passages that say that "God wants everyone to be saved" and that "Jesus died for all," I would like to see which specific ones you are talking about. Are you sure that they say this or is it a presupposition under which you approach reading the texts?

Other Scriptures say; "THIS is how God showed his love: he sent his one and only Son into the world." (1 John 4:9). And "THIS is how we know what love is; Jesus Christ laid down his life for us" (1 John 3:16).

One of the key words in the verse from 1 John is "us." In the context of the letter, and considering its intended audience, to whom do you think John was referring when he said "us"? I do not think he is talking about all people everywhere at all times in that context.

What should they say - "this is how we know what love is; Jesus Christ died for some people. If you are one of the chosen, rejoice; if you were created by God to be sent to hell, bad luck."? That's not love. The cross shows God's love for us - Scripture says so. But if Jesus only died for a few people, then his death only shows that God loves those he has already chosen and who he knows will love him. And Jesus said, "what good is it if you are kind only to those who are kind to you? Even the pagans do that."

"That's not love" says the clay to the potter. All the more reason for one to read and come to grips with Romans 9.

Who are the "chosen", the "elect," and the "predestined"? These are all terms used to describe a certain group in Scripture. So one cannot say that they do not exist.

Also, who are the vessels and who is the potter in Romans 9? What rights does the potter have over the clay? Does the clay have rights over the potter?

But if Jesus only died for a few people, then his death only shows that God loves those he has already chosen and who he knows will love him. And Jesus said, "what good is it if you are kind only to those who are kind to you? Even the pagans do that."

I fail to see your point here. Just because Jesus died for the elect does not mean that those who love him and have been chosen can mistreat and not show love to everyone. On the contrary, it is their duty to show love on account of what he did for them. Thus, you have put forward a false dilemma.

1 Thessalonians 5:9

9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Suffering eternal death and the wrath of God does not have to be anyone's fate or destination because God sent Jesus to save us from this.

No, you have focused on the word "destined" as if it is something bad. What the verse says is that there are two distinct categories, those destined for wrath and those destined for obtaining salvation through Christ. It does not say that people are not destined for wrath and not destined for salvation.

Revelation 5:9

9And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Salvation is universal. Not that only a few from evey tribe and nation would, or could, be saved, but that Jesus died for everyone. (Of course, not everyone WILL be saved, because some will choode to reject him. But God has made salvation possible for everyone.)

Perhaps "universal" is not the best term to be used here. I understand what you are saying but I am not sure how you developed this idea from Scripture. It appears to be a presuppsosition that you bring to the text.

This passage, among others, clues us in to what the Bible means when it uses seemingly all-inclusive terms such as "all", "everyone," and "the world." In the context of salvation, we see that here it is talking about people drawn from all tribes and nations for whom Christ died.

God is outside time. He saw everything before he even created the world - he knew what would happen, who would accept him and who wouldn't. Those he knew would accept him, be saved through Jesus, be his children and belong to him, already had their names written in the book of life before the world was created. We can be safe and secure in him. He already knew that we would accept him - just as he already knew that we would sin, and provided a Saviour before it even happened. (1 Peter 1:20)

Once again, I am not sure how you develop the idea from Scripture that God applied the blood of Christ to those people based on his foreknowing of "what would happen."

Of course he knows what is will happen because he is omniscient. But this does not mean that his foreknowing of some decision is the reason for his saving of people. 1 Peter 1:20 certainly does not say this. Thus, I think it is a presupposition that you bring to the text.

Consider the following passages:

2 Thessalonians 2:13

13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9

9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity

Notice that they say nothing about Christ saving people based upon God's foreknowing of a decision they will make. Rather, as they both show, it is based upon God's purpose and grace, mediated through Christ, and effected by the Holy Spirit.

Knowing what Scripture says about the love, grace, mercy and goodness of God, and having experienced this for myself; I cannot believe that he sat in heaven thinking, "I'll create John Smith/allow him to be born, and live for x number of years. But he's going to hell."
What would be the point of that?

This appears to be a major presupposition that filters your understanding of Scripture and allows you to declare how you think that God should act towards people. Now, just because I say this does not mean that I think your caricaturization is accurate.

Please prayerfully consider the message of Romans 9 and tell me what you think.

A woman who gave birth to a child in a field and walked away and left it, would be judged to be either ill, or very cruel. If the child died without being found, but the woman was found, or gave herself up, she might well be charged. How can we think that God would be that cruel, if we know we wouldn't?

Well, I do not accept the premise, because it is comparing apples to oranges on a couple different levels.

 

[UnionJack]

I don't think they will necessarily go to hell.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Everyone deserves hell because all men are sinners. If they have never heard the gospel and had the chance to repent and believe all that means is that they are reprobates and are going to get the punishment they justly deserve.

I'm glad to hear there is still at least one other who believes this besides me. This is the old-timey motivation for foreign missions which has fallen into Evangelical disfavor in our era it seems. The world is lost, period. That is why they need the gospel.

The fact remains, in the 2,000 years of the Church there has never been an unreached people group who when reached said, "oh, nevermind, Jesus or an angel already came here and preached to us". Instead, the gospel arrives and when received frees people from untold fear and enslavement to destructive practices.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Are people chosen by chance who and who aren't exposed to the word of Christ. All men are sinners but why do only certain people get a chance to be saved? Can somebody be saved by the blood of Christ unconsciously without hearing the word but being morally upright?

The rigor of your logic is irrefutable, ...except by Scripture.

 

[SummaScriptura]

IMHO. they will be judged as they live. Those who show mercy will receive mercy.

And whether judged by the law etched in stone or one etched in hearts, no flesh shall be justified by works of the law.

There are no born-again Muslims or Hindus or Buddha-worshippers. One must be born again. There is only one way to God, that way is the Lord Jesus Christ who lived and died and rose again in order tnat the good news of His gift can be preached to all so they may be saved from their sins.

Slice it anyway you like, as thin as it goes, there is no room for equivocation on this issue in the Scriptures.

 

[GoodNewsJim]

Only God can judge, this means we on Earth are unqualified to judge if a person is going to hell. Judge not lest you be judged.

 

[Strong in Him]

I am sorry, but despite the "questions" that you asked, it was very judgmental to tell him that he worships a "nasty god," lowercase g, no less.

Yes, lower case 'g' because God is not like that - that's the point.
Some other god might create a person and condemn them for not knowing him when no one had told them about him; I don't believe the Lord our God does.

Secondly, I think it is belittling to label the end result of what he said as merely bad luck. What DD2008 explained is a Scriptural fact - sinners are sinners before God whether they know it or not. They stand convicted by virtue of their father Adam.

I said "bad luck", because the argument seemed to be that a person is created a sinner. If they don't know that, and have no opportunity to repent and call upon their Saviour; too bad, they will go to hell anyway. That they haven't heard the Gospel is unfortunate and not their fault, but if they pointed that out, too bad. They would still be condemned (apparently.)

Sin is deliberate, wilful rebellion against God. Everyone falls short of God's glory, but how can a person choose to reject and disobey God if they don't know him?

Concerning your use of the word "accept", could you explain what you mean by that?

I mean that if someone believes in Jesus, believes that he suffered an agonising death on the cross so their sin could be forgiven and they could be reconciled to God, and in fact this is the only way they can have eternal life and go to heaven - by what Jesus has done for them, NOT by their own good deeds; if they believe and agree with all that, confess their sins and ask Jesus to be their Saviour - they have then accepted God's free gift. And received what Jesus did for them.

Respectfully, is that really what Paul says above or is it something you tell yourself to assuage your own conscience?

Assuage my conscience?? Why do I need to do that? I have not been called to go overseas, to search out places where the Gospel has not been preached and preach it. Others are; I'm not.

Paul says, in Romans 10:13-15 that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. He asks, how can they call on God unless they believe in him? How can they believe in him unless they have heard about him? How can they hear about him unless someone preaches to them? How can someone preach, unless they are sent?

So, if no one has been to a particular country to preach the Gospel, and people have not heard that God sent Jesus to die for their sin; how can they be condenmed for not believing it?

I think the key is revealed in some of the other passages which I posted.

Is it? What about other passages - and the one I just quoted from Romans 10?

Concerning passages that say that "God wants everyone to be saved" and that "Jesus died for all," I would like to see which specific ones you are talking about. Are you sure that they say this or is it a presupposition under which you approach reading the texts?

John 3:16 says that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned; Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. Since everyone has sinned, everyone is in need of a Saviour. Jesus was the only sinless person who ever lived - Jesus was the only One who did not need saving from sin - everyone else does. Unless you believe that some people are perfect and not sinners at all? Which I don't think you do, because that is what this is about. We have all sinned, we all need a Saviour.
Peter says that God is patient and wants everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

"That's not love" says the clay to the potter.

It's a fact. The cross shows us God's love. We have a further desctription of love in 1 Cor 13;
Love is patient, love is kind.
If God allows someone to be born, knowing before they have taken their first breath, that they are already condemned to hell - how is that being patient with, or kind to, them?
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
These are negative qualities, and love does not have these.
Condemning someone to hell, to an eternity without God, is also pretty negative - nasty, even.
It is not rude, it is not self seeking.
I'd say that telling someone they have been condemned for rejecting a God they have not heard of, is rather rude. In effect, God would be saying "you never heard about my Son nor had a chance to reject him, but I reject YOU anyway.
It is not easily angered
God said this to Moses in Exodus 34; "the Lord .... slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness".
It keeps no record of wrongs
Which is what God does when we confess and he forgives us
Love does not rejoice in evil
No, evil and sin upset and angered God so much, he did something about it.
It always protects, always hopes ... always perseveres
This could not be said of someone who created a person just to condemn them, or who made them for hell.

So when I say that God created eveyone, made us all in his image, but has decided that, even though all are sinners, only a few will be saved - and this is not love; I am only saying what Scripture teaches. God is love. The cross PROVES that God is love and shows his love to us.
Some people do look at the cross and reject God's love - they may even think God is cruel to let Jesus suffer that way. That doesn't mean that God is not love, but he is not love FOR THEM. They don't believe they need to accept Jesus and God's free gift of love and forgivenesws. Though I would guess that if you were preaching the Gospel and someone told you they didn't believe God loved them, you wouldn't say, "you could be right"; you'd do your best to persuade them of God's love, and even pray that they might know it.

Perhaps "universal" is not the best term to be used here. I understand what you are saying but I am not sure how you developed this idea from Scripture. It appears to be a presuppsosition that you bring to the text.

This passage, among others, clues us in to what the Bible means when it uses seemingly all-inclusive terms such as "all", "everyone," and "the world." In the context of salvation, we see that here it is talking about people drawn from all tribes and nations for whom Christ died.

As I said, Scripture says that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Sin separates us from God. If we are not forgiven and die unforgiven and unreconciled to God, we will be eternally separated ftrom him, eternally dead. This is true for everyone. As we all need a Saviour, I cannot see why you would say that God's way of salvation is open to only a few. That means that God knew that sin could not be defeated without the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross; that mankind was unable to save itself, but determined that the agony that Jesus went through would apply only to a few people. This is illogical and is against the nature of God as revealed in Scripture.

Of course he knows what is will happen because he is omniscient. But this does not mean that his foreknowing of some decision is the reason for his saving of people.

Why would God NOT want to save some people?
He created everyone and made us all in his image. Genesis 2 says that God breathed his Spirit into Adam. We all contain the breath of God, are dependant on him for life, and are made in his image. We are all sinners and were all enemies of God. These are facts taught in Scripture. Knowing that we could not pay the price for our sin and were unable to save ourselves, God did it. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Knowing that the cross proves how much God loves us (Rom 5:6-8), and knowing that God IS love, why would he only allow a few, preselected people to benefit from his amazing free gift and offer of salvation?

Sorry, but I think we need to read all of Scripture, which reveals the nature, character and works of God to us, and not focus on a couple of verses which seem to prove a particualr doctrine.

Well, I do not accept the premise, because it is comparing apples to oranges on a couple different levels.

You are free not to accept it, but I believe it to be a valid argument.
If you were a woman, and you had chosen to go through with a pregnancy - with all the pain and discomfort that that involves - and then walk away from your child after the birth, choosing to deliberately let it die; what does that say about you? That you are ill? Scared? Or just unbelievably evil?
If YOU wouldn't do that sort of thing, and you are a sinner, how can you believe that GOD, who is perfect, and who is love, would? The creature is not greater than the one who created it; the clay is not greater than the potter, and the servant is not greater than his master.

I heard a sermon many years ago at a friend's ordination. It said that a Minister is like a pane of glass; if you look at it closely, you will see dirt, dust, imperfections. If you look THROUGH it, you will see the outside world - God's creation. I think the Bible is a bit like that. If you scrutinise each individual verse closely, you can come up with a view of God that is represented only by that verse - if you take Scripture as a whole and look at what it ALL reveals about the nature of God, you get a much clearer, wider picture.

Scripture says that God is love - that he sent Jesus to die for our sins.

 

[DCHSKNIGHT]

Strong In Him...

I think you forget just who you are and who you are in relation to God. Yes we are made in the image of our perfect and loving father.

The word is PERFECT. Our God is 100% perfect. He is absolute. It is the the ultimate and the ender of all things. He is more powerful then the sun. He is stronger then the battering rogue waves of the sea. He holds this world in the tip of his eyelash. He holds this universe in the palm of his hand. He is he master of all and all things were made for him and by him. He owns everything. Just who are you to tell him what he can and can not do? Who are you to tell him what is fair?

This perfect being created this perfect world and created perfect beings to dwell in it. Then he gave them one rule. They broke it. And as through one man death entered this world, through one man salvation was given to all. Before Christ you were dead, nothing, and empty husk of blood and flesh. He, since he owns everything including Salvation, gets to determines the rules of Salvation. HIS rules, HIS way, HIS, it is all HIS. HE says that all of sinned. He says that because of one man the whole human race is damned. From the moment we enter this world till the moment we leave it we are dead. UNTIL we take that gift.

HE says that no man will have an excuse when stand before him. NO HUMAN BEING will be able to say. I did not know. As some one else quoted The things that are visible have made known the qualities of the Invisible.

It is Jesus Or get out. there is no other name under heaven that has been given to unto men that can save. NOTHING. there is nothing we can or anything can do to save us. ONLY Jesus. If you do not have the blood of Christ covering you. Your sins are not forgiven.

The whole question what about he indian int he forest who has never heard... my answer to that... Why do you think Jesus has not come back yet? It is not the will of the father that any one should perish. But If any one wishes to not follow him that is their choice.

so in conclusion. It is Jesus or get out. No ifs ands or buts about it. Jesus or get out.

 

[Strong in Him]

Strong In Him...

I think you forget just who you are and who you are in relation to God.

I know exactly who I am in Christ, thank you. And who I am in relation to God - his child.

The word is PERFECT. Our God is 100% perfect. He is absolute. It is the the ultimate and the ender of all things. He is more powerful then the sun. He is stronger then the battering rogue waves of the sea. He holds this world in the tip of his eyelash. He holds this universe in the palm of his hand. He is he master of all and all things were made for him and by him. He owns everything.

I know.

Just who are you to tell him what he can and can not do? Who are you to tell him what is fair?

It is not for me to tell him what he can DO, who he can heal, call etc etc.
But who God IS, his nature and character, is revealed in Scripture for all to read, because he WANTS us to know him - to know what he is like.
He can DO anything he pleases - except go against his own nature; deny himself, be unfaithful to himself. This is something it IS impossible for God to do - deny his name and character, go against his own revelation of himself.

God is LOVE. Jesus showed us that love by going to the cross for us; and told us to love as God loves us. Everything that God does is done from love, because that's who God is - when he does something, it is love which is the motive and reason for doing it, because he is love. He cannot be un - love. Scripture says he is just, merciful, compassionate, faithful etc. He cannot be UN gracious, UN compassionate, UN merciful. That is what God is like; he cannot NOT be those things.
He may allow/do something which is unpleasant for us - but that's because the Lord disciplines all whom he loves, and because his ultimate aim is to make us like Jesus (2 Cor 3:18)

So when I say that God would not create someone just to condemn them to hell, I believe I am able to say that, and right to do so; because that does not appear to me to be the action of a loving God, in line with his nature and what I know about him.

He, since he owns everything including Salvation, gets to determines the rules of Salvation. HIS rules, HIS way, HIS, it is all HIS. HE says that all of sinned. He says that because of one man the whole human race is damned. From the moment we enter this world till the moment we leave it we are dead. UNTIL we take that gift.

Yes, and because ALL have sinned, ALL need a Saviour.

But how can a person TAKE that gift of life and salvation, if they have not heard about it - if no one has told them? (Rom 10). How can anyone KNOW they are dead in their sins, unless someone teaches them?

It is Jesus Or get out. there is no other name under heaven that has been given to unto men that can save. NOTHING. there is nothing we can or anything can do to save us. ONLY Jesus. If you do not have the blood of Christ covering you. Your sins are not forgiven.

I am not saying for one minute that there is any other Saviour besides Jesus. I am saying that not EVERYONE has had a chance to hear the Gospel - God has made provision for this, but the Gospel has not yet reached everyone in the whole world.

The whole question what about he indian int he forest who has never heard... my answer to that... Why do you think Jesus has not come back yet? It is not the will of the father that any one should perish. But If any one wishes to not follow him that is their choice.

EXACTLY! Not everyone has yet heard, which is why Jesus hasn't returned yet. It is THEIR CHOICE if they do not accept him - but that means they must have had the Gospel preached to them to be able to make that choice.

Rom 10:13-15 If they have not heard, how can they believe? If they have not heard, how can they be condemned for not making that choice?

 

[Tzaousios]

Yes, lower case 'g' because God is not like that - that's the point.
Some other god might create a person and condemn them for not knowing him when no one had told them about him; I don't believe the Lord our God does.

So you are admitting that you did pass judgment on him before he even explained himself. The description you have provided above is more pejorative than it is accurate.

I said "bad luck", because the argument seemed to be that a person is created a sinner. If they don't know that, and have no opportunity to repent and call upon their Saviour; too bad, they will go to hell anyway. That they haven't heard the Gospel is unfortunate and not their fault, but if they pointed that out, too bad. They would still be condemned (apparently.)

No, people are born with a sinful nature because of what their father Adam did. Is not some cosmic game where God creates people as sinners without reason and then points and laughs. Once again, your description is more pejorative than accurate.

Genesis 6:5

5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 8:21

21The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Psalm 51:5

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

Jeremiah 17:9

9"The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?"

Romans 5:12

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Sin is deliberate, wilful rebellion against God. Everyone falls short of God's glory, but how can a person choose to reject and disobey God if they don't know him?

A person's actual sin is deliberate. However, their sinful nature comes from their father Adam. At any rate, I think Paul's point in Romans 1:18-21 answers this question very well. They have no excuses.

Is it? What about other passages - and the one I just quoted from Romans 10?

Well, since I do not believe Scripture contradicts itself, Romans 10 is compatible with the other passages I have posted. It is talking about the need for preachers to speak the Gospel to those appointed unto salvation. It is the means by which their salvation is initiated. Once again, we must consider the context and audience - who are the "they" that Paul is talking about?

John 3:16 says that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Indeed, and you will notice that in the translation as well as in the original Greek that "everyone" does not stand alone as meaning every person in all places at all times. Rather, it is limited by "who believes." So the ones who believe from every tribe and nation will not perish but have eternal life.

Unless you believe that some people are perfect and not sinners at all? Which I don't think you do, because that is what this is about. We have all sinned, we all need a Saviour.
Peter says that God is patient and wants everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

No, my original point in bringing up the meaning of these seemingly collective terms was not to say that there are perfect, sinless people besides Christ.

As for the verse from 2 Peter, what is the context and to whom and about whom is he speaking?

It's a fact. The cross shows us God's love.

Something which I have not denied and do not believe Scripture contradicts.

Love is patient, love is kind...

Your discourse on 1 Corinthians was nice but I think it misses the point of what Paul explains in Romans 9. Have you prayerfully read and considered what that chapter says about salvation and God's sovereignty?

Repeating the mantra of "God creating a person just to condemn them and send them to Hell" is a pejorative and inaccurate description of something it appears you do not understand well yet.

So when I say that God created eveyone, made us all in his image, but has decided that, even though all are sinners, only a few will be saved - and this is not love; I am only saying what Scripture teaches.

Respectfully, I do not think you are "only saying what Scripture teaches." You are taking what you would like to believe and using it as a presupposition by which you approach the texts. It seems you might even leave out some difficult texts because they do not square with this presupposition. Please read Romans 9 and tell me how you interpret it.

As for God "being love," don't you think it is a bit hazardous to confuse the nature of God with one of his attributes? I am not sure where Scripture specifically defines the nature of God as only being love.

As we all need a Saviour, I cannot see why you would say that God's way of salvation is open to only a few. That means that God knew that sin could not be defeated without the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross; that mankind was unable to save itself, but determined that the agony that Jesus went through would apply only to a few people. This is illogical and is against the nature of God as revealed in Scripture.

What do you mean "God knew that sin could not be defeated without the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross"? That is very limiting on God's power.

The sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was the specific means by which God chose to defeat the power of death in sin. He determined this before the foundation of the world just like he determined unto whom the blood of Christ would be applied.

John 15:16

You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Romans 8:28-30

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

2 Thessalonians 2:13

13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Sorry, but I think we need to read all of Scripture, which reveals the nature, character and works of God to us, and not focus on a couple of verses which seem to prove a particualr doctrine.

And what "particular doctrine" might this be? It seems that you are saying that the verses which I have posted do not square with your presupposition. Do you believe that they contradict other verses that you have posted?

You are free not to accept it, but I believe it to be a valid argument.

No, it is not valid. Comparing almighty God and his deeds to a sinful, finite human being and their actions is not valid and is comparing apples to oranges. The Potter is not comparable to the clay either in nature or deed.

 

[DD2008]

Only God can judge, this means we on Earth are unqualified to judge if a person is going to hell. Judge not lest you be judged.

We're not judging. God has already told us that those who don't believe in Christ are condemned, it's plainly written in the bible.

John 3:18-19 KJV
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:36 KJV
[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Hentenza]

If we are not born with a sinful nature then we don't need a savior.

 

[Hentenza]

Everyone deserves hell because all men are sinners. If they have never heard the gospel and had the chance to repent and believe all that means is that they are reprobates and are going to get the punishment they justly deserve.

Yep!! And all are without excuse.

 

[Hentenza]

Only God can judge, this means we on Earth are unqualified to judge if a person is going to hell. Judge not lest you be judged.

We are not to judge others "hypocritically". I have to be able to discern false teaching and judge others actions to help them.

 

[Strong in Him]

So you are admitting that you did pass judgment on him before he even explained himself.

No, I was NOT judging him. If it appeared that way, I'm sorry, but to be honest I don't see what it's got to do with you.

The picture of God as someone who condemns a person to hell because of their din, even though they did not know they had sinned against him and never had a chance to respond to his love and grace; is not a nice one. It was this "god" that I was saying was nasty. If I had been judging the forummer, I would have said, "YOU are nasty"; but I didn't.

No, people are born with a sinful nature because of what their father Adam did.

The only two problems with that are -
a) if everyone is born a sinner, with an already sinful nature, then so was Jesus.
b) babies who die in the womb, soon after childbirth or at only 1 day, week or month old have not sinned. They have not deliberately rebelled against God and broken his laws. They also do not know that they need a Saviour.

King David said that God "knit us together in our mother's womb". He saw us when we were only just conceived, he formed all our bodies. David also said that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made". Surely you don't believe God created sinful people?

Genesis 6:5
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Yes, the sin of fully grown men and women - as Adam and Eve were when they chose to sin.
Adam was able understand the command he received from God not to eat from the tree. He went ahead and did it anyway - knowingly.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

Yes, and the man who said those words also said the words from Psalm 139 that I quoted above. In Psalm 51, David was overcome with guilt and remorse for his adultery with Bathsheba and murder of her husband. It is not surprising, in those circumstances, that he described himself in those words. Like I say, elsewhere he says that he is fearfully and wonderfully made, and it was God who made him so.

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?"

Romans 5:12

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

A person's actual sin is deliberate. However, their sinful nature comes from their father Adam. At any rate, I think Paul's point in Romans 1:18-21 answers this question very well. They have no excuses.

Yes we are all sinners through Adam, I didn't say otherwise.
They DO have an excuse for not receiving Jesus as their Saviour - if no one has ever told them about him.

If no one ever needed to hear the Gospel, Jesus wouldn't have told us to preach it. If we were all born KNOWING that we are sinners and we need Jesus to save us, without being told; if it was some innate thing, well great - let's not bother with missions and evangelism. Why waste money on telling people what they already know?

People do NOT know that they are sinners, and have fallen short of God's standards, until someone tells them. Most people I come into contact with do voluntary and charity work, have killed no one and consider themselves to be fairly decent human beings. They reckon that a person gets to heaven if they have lived a good life, and may not even think it necessary to believe in God. They will not know any differently unless someone tells them - that they are sinners and need to repent and accept what Jesus has done for them. If no one tells them, how will they know?
I imagine that's how it was for you; you were not born knowing the Gospel, you had to be told/taught.

Well, since I do not believe Scripture contradicts itself, Romans 10 is compatible with the other passages I have posted. It is talking about the need for preachers to speak the Gospel to those appointed unto salvation. It is the means by which their salvation is initiated. Once again, we must consider the context and audience - who are the "they" that Paul is talking about?

Well exactly - the Gospel needs to be preached before anyone can hear, understand and believe it. If the Gospel has not been preached and people have not heard, they cannot respond.

As Paul uses words like "anyone" and "everyone", is there anything here to suggest that he in fact means only a few?

Indeed, and you will notice that in the translation as well as in the original Greek that "everyone" does not stand alone as meaning every person in all places at all times. Rather, it is limited by "who believes." So the ones who believe from every tribe and nation will not perish but have eternal life.

Yes but they have no chance to believe if they have not heard.

If someone hears the Gospel, learns of their sin, God's love and what he did to atone for that sin and make forgiveness and reconciliation possible; if they continually and wilfully reject it and God, then they will spend eternity without him. I'm not saying otherwise. If they KNEW that all they had to do to be saved was to call upon Jesus, and if they refused to do that - they died unsaved. I am not trying to say that everyone ends up being saved eventually anyway. I am saying that if a person has NEVER heard the Gospel, how can they be CONDEMNED for rejecting it?

That's ALL I've said in this thread. I may have touched upon issues like predestination, which is a seperate issue, and for the record, one I do not believe in.
But my belief, and answer to the OP is, that if a person has never heard the Good News, they will not be judged for not believing it - because God is love, he is compassionate, merciful, kind and just.

On a very basic level, if a student had an exam, left some of the answers blank, lost marks and was told off, and said "but we haven't been taught that yet"; no doubt the school/exam board would be in trouble for asking questions on something that the sudent had not learnt. You can't answer a question about something you have not been taught.
Why do we think that God would be like this?

 

[Hentenza]

Yes but they have no chance to believe if they have not heard.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

No one is without excuse.

If someone hears the Gospel, learns of their sin, God's love and what he did to atone for that sin and make forgiveness and reconciliation possible; if they continually and wilfully reject it and God, then they will spend eternity without him. I'm not saying otherwise. If they KNEW that all they had to do to be saved was to call upon Jesus, and if they refused to do that - they died unsaved. I am not trying to say that everyone ends up being saved eventually anyway. I am saying that if a person has NEVER heard the Gospel, how can they be CONDEMNED for rejecting it?

I trust in the Lord, consequently, I trust that He will be just. It is imperative that we take the gospel to all corners of the world, however, it is up to them to hear it.

That's ALL I've said in this thread. I may have touched upon issues like predestination, which is a seperate issue, and for the record, one I do not believe in.
But my belief, and answer to the OP is, that if a person has never heard the Good News, they will not be judged for not believing it - because God is love, he is compassionate, merciful, kind and just.

God is also holy and wrath. God is all in all. But you are right in that He is just.

On a very basic level, if a student had an exam, left some of the answers blank, lost marks and was told off, and said "but we haven't been taught that yet"; no doubt the school/exam board would be in trouble for asking questions on something that the sudent had not learnt. You can't answer a question about something you have not been taught.

However, if the answers were in the book and one did not study it then who's fault is it? Is it the fault of the schools that we have folks that are illiterate or folks that don;t know math, or folks that are ignorant of history? Ultimately the student must take responsibility.

Why do we think that God would be like this?

He isn't. Only those that claim that someone else is at fault would go in that direction. In the garden of Eden, both Adam and Eve assigned fault to another but ultimately it is their sin of disobedience. God told them plainly what not to do and they decided to ignore the command in favor of what their itchy ears wanted to hear.

 

[Strong in Him]

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

No one is without excuse.

Oh right.

So I can disobey Jesus' command to go and preach the Gospel? No one needs know what Jesus did for them, since God's attributes can be clearly seen in his creation? In fact Jesus didn't need to come and show us what God was like at all - we all knew, and could tell just by looking at the things he has made?
The heavens DO proclaim the glory of God, but if they told us everything; if creation was sufficient to tell us the Good News, Jesus wouldn't have needed to come at all.

I trust in the Lord, consequently, I trust that He will be just. It is imperative that we take the gospel to all corners of the world, however, it is up to them to hear it.

Yes but the whole question of this thread is that if people DON'T get to hear it - what then?

Some people are unable to hear the Gospel because there is so much hurt, sin and bad experiences in their lives. How can anyone REALLY hear that God is love, if, for them, love has always equalled sex? How can people hear the news that God accepts them, when no one has ever accepted them, or has taught that they have to earn their acceptance?
But that is a slightly different topic. The question under discussion was whether God would condemn someone for not responding to the Gospel and accepting Jesus, when they have never heard of him. And no one has ever preached the Gospel to them.

However, if the answers were in the book and one did not study it then who's fault is it? Is it the fault of the schools that we have folks that are illiterate or folks that don;t know math, or folks that are ignorant of history? Ultimately the student must take responsibility.

If someone in some distant country has NEVER had access to a Bible, how can they be condemned for not believing in him?

I'm not talking about people in this country, or the west, who have every opportunity to buy, read and study the Bible, but just don't. We are talking about people who have NEVER had ANY access to missionaries, the Bible, the Gospel and so on. Who die competely ignorant of God and the Good News because no one has ever told them.

 

[Leah]

Romans 1:20

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse

Ecclesiastes 3:11

11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.